A Personal Recipe with Caraway Seed and without Ginger

[ayamgoreng]

Hi all,

This is my latest personal recipe which most of it's ingredients are basically based on Ken's KG135/2016 10g recipe (Thank you Ken).

The different is there is no Ginger in mine and I introduce Caraway spice as a replacement. I exclude Ginger because due to a possibility that there is no Ginger at all in the original recipe, as mentioned by Ken in one of his latest thread in this forum.

Caraway is having similar in appearance as that of cumin, aniseed, fennel and dill but it's taste is unique and not similar to those seeds. It has a pungent anise-like and slightly peppery and minty aroma. It contains essential oils, mostly carvone, limonene, and anethole. Caraway's per US teaspoon weight is 2.1g (same as clove and aniseed). Caraway can be found sold at MK's.

(Just for my own personal reference, I call this recipe as HBEDE02/2016)

MSG 3/4 tsp (3g)
White Pepper 1 - 1/4 tsp (3g)
Black Pepper 1 - 1/4 tsp (2.875g)
Garlic Salt 1/4 tsp (1.3g)
Sage 3/4 tsp (0.525g)
Caraway 1/4 tsp (0.525g)
Coriander 1/4 tsp (0.45g)
Cayenne 1/4 tsp (0.45g)
Oregano 1/8 tsp (0.225g)
Summer Savory 1/8 tsp (0.175g)
Basil 1/8 tsp (0.175g)
Rosemary 1/8 tsp (0.15g)
Bay leaf 1/4 tsp (0.15g)

Recipe Weight 10g (13g including MSG) 11 Herbs & Spices.

Same as Ken's recipes, this recipe is for use with 200g low gluten Cake Flour and 21-24g Salt, depending on your personal taste.

I've tried this recipe side by side with KGDP-164/2016 and compare the taste and aroma. There is a very slight different, almost undetectable.

I've also constructed another two variants of this recipe which having Caraway at 1/8 tsp level but I have not tested it yet.

[Ken_Griffiths]

Ayamgoreng,

It's great to see you have rigidly stuck to the precise USDA ingredient weights and volumes when putting together your recipe HBEDE02/2016 and I love your idea of trialling Caraway Seed, perhaps as a match for the contents of that 'elusive' Vial C.

I would really love to know what the contents of that vial is... it looks so black in colour, almost 'soot-like' and I'm aware that people in the past have suggested these ingredients for it:

Vanilla
Clove
Caraway
Basil Seed
Nigella Seed
Black Garlic
Licorice (Liquorice)
Molasses
...and a few other things besides.

It's good to see an 'adventurous' recipe here, with no Ginger in it too. I am still exploring the fact that there might not actually be any ginger at all in the Colonels original recipe, contrary to many people's belief... it's a good thing to look into this aspect, I think, and not simply follow what others may 'mistakenly' believe.

I have a couple of questions...

Have you tried to see if you can match each and every ingredient in your recipe to the 11 glass vials?.. or might the recipe now have one ingredient too many... that's if we are saying that the Garlic and White Pepper are vials 'F' and 'G' respectively?

Did you prefer your own recipe compared side-by-side to my recipe 164 (don't be shy ... just be honest! ) and does Caraway work well with all the other ingredients, or did you think it had too much Caraway and that is why you also have the recipe variations, with it being set lower, at 1/8 tsp or 3/16 tsp etc?

If you do go on to trial any of the recipe-variations with a lower amount of Caraway, can you post to let us know what level you thought seemed to work best in the recipe.

My final question is... Did you take any corporate package-labelling into account when you were putting your recipe(s) together... as the ingredients on the corporate container labels tend to show things in weight-order (followed then by alphabetical order), albeit ’Smallgree' has suggested in the past on the TCK forum, that some thing's can be hidden/removed from a label under the protection of 'trade secrecy' legislation, in certain circumstances.

And before I sign off ..I just wanted to say I will definitively be trying your recipe, albeit I have a bout of ’man-flu' at the moment and can't smell or taste a thing, but as soon as I'm well enough, I will be onto it and I may take the recipe and split-it into three, because I also want to try how things might taste with Nigella Seed or Basil Seed in place of the Caraway and to also test each of them 'side by side'.

For some reason I cannot find the weight of Nigella Seed or Basil Seed in the USDA database, but I can use the weight of the Caraway as a guide for those ingredients and see which seeds I think seem to work best with their compound flavours, such as anethole and eugenol etc.

A nice bit of work and I'm looking forward to testing these things in the near future.

(sniff, sniff ... atishoo !.. ugh.)

Ken

[ayamgoreng]

Hi Ken,

No, I did not try matching each and every ingredient there to the 11 glass vile yet...

Yes, you are right, if Garlic is considered in one of the vial, the recipe seems having an extra ingredient. Okay, I will try looking into this.

Oh, the reason I compare my recipe side by side to your 164 because I don't have access to any sample of 99-X or Corporate seasoning. So for the time being, I just trust your claim that your 164 is identical in term of aroma to 99-x.

Honestly, my mixing of your 164 might not accurate because I just using local ginger in it. I don't have Jamaican Ginger in my possession right now. Ordered it but have not arrived yet. So I have to redo the comparing again next time. Glad to know that you will try my recipe. Thank you.

Regarding the ingredients order... Obviously the recipe is just in a simple weight-order only, not in weight-alphabetical order. Hmmm.... I did not take any corporate packaging-labeling into account. If I re-arrange the recipe in weight-alphabetical order, I don't really have any idea whether it comply or not with any existing KFC Corporate label. May be can someone enlighten me on this area?

Thank you and best regards,

Halim

[chickenhead56]

Hi guys,
I made a trip to the local grocer tonight and was looking at all the different herbs and spices on the shelves. I noticed that the "Hickory Smoke Flavored Salt" looked almost identical to vial C, and the granulated garlic was a dead ringer for vial G. Just wondering if anyone has looked into these 2 items before.

Keith

[Ken_Griffiths]

Ayamgoreng/Keith,

I was inspired by the posts in this thread to look at a potential recipe with no Ginger in it at all, just 11 herbs and spices (plus MSG). Thus perhaps believing that the Colonel might have thought of Garlic Powder or Garlic Salt as being a spice.. in other words that the two light coloured vials F and G are Garlic Powder (or Garlic Salt) and White Pepper respectively.

I wanted all the ingredients in the recipe to match the colour of the vials too (well as best as I could, using the colour of Marion Kay's ingredients) and I ended up back with that 'fateful' (not faithful) Clove ingredient again, as I couldn't get things like caraway to fit, or I simply could not find the weight for basil seeds or nigella seeds in the USDA import/export database.

I also could not find basil seeds or nigella seeds or indeed Keith's suggestion of smoked hickory salt on the Marion Kay order form .. hence I was left with only Clove that I could find a weight for ...and which perfectly matches the soot-like colour of vial C.

I'm sure this Clove ingredient will keep haunting me to my grave ... anyhow here is the only USDA compliant recipe I could find that seemed to match all the things I know and have learned about the recipe so far, over the last few years.

It's the only recipe where I could get the Clove and Garlic Powder USDA weights to precisely fit with the other things, to obtain a finished total of 10g (for the 11 ingredients) or 13g if you add the MSG to it.

Clove at 2.1g per teaspoon and Garlic Powder at 3.1g per teaspoon are really quite awkward to fit into any recipe.

Here is the recipe my calculations came up with...

Recipe KGDP-213/2016
MSG 3/4 tsp (3g)
White Pepper 1-1/4 tsp (3g) Vial G
Black Pepper 1-1/4 tsp (2.875g) Vial K
Fine Flake Salt 1/4 tsp (1.1g)
Sage 1 tsp (0.7g) Vial D
Coriander Seed (ground) 3/8 tsp (0.675g) Vial A
Red Chilli Pepper or Cayenne (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.45g) Vial J
Rosemary (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.3g) Vial I
Oregano (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.225g) Vial H
Basil (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.175g) Vial E
Savory (Summer) (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.175g) Vial B
Garlic Powder 1/16 tsp (0.19375g) Vial F
Clove 1/16 tsp (0.13125g) Vial C
Recipe Weight 10g (13g including MSG) 11 Herbs & Spices

** Note if I were to make the above recipe at home, I would make a couple of slight adjustments to it, for the purposes of simplifying the recipe.

I would adjust it so that it looked like this:

Recipe KGDP-213/2016 (Adjusted & Simplified for Home Use)
MSG 3/4 tsp (3g)
White Pepper 1-1/4 tsp (3g) Vial G
Black Pepper 1-1/4 tsp (2.875g) Vial K
Garlic Salt 1/4 tsp (1.3 g) Vial F
Sage 1 tsp (0.7g) Vial D
Coriander Seed (ground) 3/8 tsp (0.675g) Vial A
Red Chilli Pepper or Cayenne (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.45g) Vial J
Rosemary (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.3g) Vial I
Oregano (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.225g) Vial H
Basil (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.175g) Vial E
Savory (Summer) (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.175g) Vial B
Clove 1/16 tsp (0.125g) Vial C
Recipe Weight 10g (13g including MSG) 11 Herbs & Spices

So the initial recipe is a precise USDA database compliant recipe and I have then simplified it to how I think the Colonel would have re-created it, although his recipes were probably made using a larger scale than most folk would use at home.

The recipe is for use with the usual 200g of flour and 21-24g salt.

I have added in the vial letters after each ingredient. I can provide some photo's of ingredient to vial matching, but will not post them all at this stage .. don't want to swamp the forum with unnecesary images, but I suspect the one colour match I might get asked about by the members here might be vial E, which I have identified as Basil... so I will just post an image showing that colour match ...

The vial in this image is a closeup of vial E and next to it is a photograph of Marion Kay's ground Basil:


Click to enlarge image.

So far, that's the best 'No Ginger' recipe I have managed to find myself too date, but as usual my research continues and I'm sure there are many people out there who believe that there is Jamaican Ginger in the Colonel's secret original recipe. This thread just shows that there are some alternatives if it does transpire we were wrong about Ginger and that there are perhaps 11 herbs and spices in addition to the MSG.

This will at least perhaps begin to satisfy those people who believe that the Colonel might have seen Garlic Powder as a 'spice' and that it is contained in one of the 11 glass vials.

Ken

[Ken_Griffiths]

A couple of things I would like to also quickly point out about recipe KGDP-213/2016 above...

If you list the ingredients in the order of the 11 glass vials, the first four contain the initials of COlonel SAnders and his wife CLaudia SAnders, which I think was done on purpose by the Corporation for commemorative purposes.

The fine flake salt is 11g in a scaled 100g recipe and I think the number 11 remains important. It combines with the garlic powder (as adjusted) to produce the 13g Garlic Salt in a 100g recipe too (as mentioned by Winston Shelton), and by setting both Clove and Garlic Powder to 1/16 tsp each, they do combine together to produce 3 whole grams (in a 100g recipe) and this is the only 'sensible' level I could find where those two ingredients can combine together to produce whole grams and thus create a USDA compliant 10g recipe.

I thought those facts were worthy of mention.

[Ken_Griffiths]

Ayamgoreng (Halim),

By the way, when I was putting the above 'No Ginger' KGDP-213 recipe together, I too found I had one herb too many, the same as you. I opted to remove bay-leaf from the recipe, as on the Wikipedia website it describes the bay-leaf flavour compound as having lots of eugenol. That's the same 'eucalyptus' flavour of clove and so it made perfect sense that it was the herb ingredient I needed to remove.

That's why there is no bay-leaf in the recipe, aswell as it not being the best vial match colour-wise.

Ken

[ayamgoreng]

This is an adjustment to my earlier recipe.

I stick with Caraway at 1/4 tsp because reducing it will not scale nicely into 100lbs barrel. I too discarded Bay Leaf, so it won't be one too many ingredients. I reduced Basil to 1/16 tsp, increase Sage to 7/8 tsp and Rosemary to 1/4 tsp.

(Recipe HBEDE05/2016)

MSG 3/4 tsp (3g)
1) White Pepper 1 - 1/4 tsp (3g) Vial G
2) Black Pepper 1 - 1/4 tsp (2.875g) Vial K
3) Garlic Salt 1/4 tsp (1.3g) Vial F
4) Sage 7/8 tsp (0.6125g) Vial D
5) Caraway 1/4 tsp (0.525g) Vial C
6) Cayenne 1/4 tsp (0.45g) Vial J
7) Coriander 1/4 tsp (0.45g) Vial A
8) Rosemary 1/4 tsp (0.3g) Vial I
9) Oregano 1/8 tsp (0.225g) Vial H
10) Summer Savory 1/8 tsp (0.175g) Vial B
11) Basil 1/16 tsp (0.0875g) Vial E

Recipe Weight 10g (13g including MSG) 11 Herbs & Spices.

I haven't try this one but I hope with removal of Bay-Leaf and reduction of Basil, it will improve or balance the taste.

Halim

[Ken_Griffiths]

Halim,

Just to say, I made up the recipe KGDP-213/2016 yesterday and ground the ingredients finely in a coffee grinder with some salt. I then cleaned the grinder and did the same thing with 99x, doing my best to get the salt levels even (equivalent by taste) and I photographed the two blends side by side. I have posted the photograph below.

My initial findings are that my 213 mix smells and looks very slightly differently to the 99x, but I don't think it is because of the fact I have taken the ginger out, I think the smell difference was more to do with the garlic and possibly the Basil standing out in my mix. It is rumoured there is no garlic in 99x and if there is Clove in 99x then I think it's possibly lower that 1/16 tsp.

I would describe my 213 mix as slightly darker and redder, so this may also mean I need to try a different chilli/red pepper ... I currently use McCormick's cayenne powder and clearly 99x uses some kind of chilli flakes, which are visible to the naked eye.

Anyhow taste-wise, my 213 mix seemed hotter than 99x, but I can't say whether or not 99x contains ginger, even now, despite my best efforts.

I have not cooked the 213 recipe, but I am working on another 'no ginger' recipe based on my findings from this one.

Here is the comparison photograph, which hopefully is self-explanatory:


Click to enlarge image.

[ayamgoreng]

Ken,

I am just thinking if we use clove in the recipe, maybe we should try remove Basil instead of Bay-leaf because of the stronger clove-like flavor/scent in Basil.

Halim

[Ken_Griffiths]

Dec 1, 2016 18:02:50 GMT ayamgoreng said:

Ken,

I am just thinking if we use clove in the recipe, maybe we should try remove Basil instead of Bay-leaf because of the stronger clove-like flavor/scent in Basil.

Halim

Halim,

Taking your advice and ideas, this is the best I have found so far:

Recipe KGDP-214/2016
MSG 3/4 tsp (3g)
White Pepper 1-1/4 tsp (3g) Vial G
Black Pepper 1-1/4 tsp (2.875g) Vial K
Fine Flake Salt 1/4 tsp (1.2g)
Sage 1 tsp (0.7g) Vial D
Coriander Seed (ground) 3/8 tsp (0.675g) Vial A
Red Chilli Pepper or Cayenne (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.45g) Vial J
Rosemary (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.3g) Vial I
Oregano (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.225g) Vial H
Bay-Leaf Turkish (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.15g) Vial E
Savory (Summer) (ground) 3/16 tsp (0.2625g) Vial B
Garlic Powder 1/32 tsp (0.098675g) Vial F
Clove 1/32 tsp (0.065625) Vial C
Recipe Weight 10g (13g including MSG) 11 Herbs & Spices

Here is what the Colonel's recipe would have maybe looked like ...which is based on the above exact recipe, but one or two ingredients have been 'slightly' adjusted to fit his 100lb Barrel in whole and part pounds:

Recipe KGDP-214/2016 (Adjusted)
MSG 3/4 tsp (3g)
White Pepper 1-1/4 tsp (3g) Vial G
Black Pepper 1-1/4 tsp (2.875g) Vial K
Garlic Salt 1/4 tsp (1.3 g) Vial F**
Sage 1 tsp (0.7g) Vial D
Coriander Seed (ground) 3/8 tsp (0.675g) Vial A
Red Chilli Pepper or Cayenne (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.45g) Vial J
Rosemary (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.3g) Vial I
Oregano (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.225g) Vial H
Bay-Leaf Turkish (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.15g) Vial E
Savory (Summer) (leaf) 1/4 tsp (0.25g) Vial B
Clove 1/32 tsp (0.075g) Vial C
Recipe Weight 10g (13g including MSG) 11 Herbs & Spices

** Garlic Salt in this recipe can be replaced by 1.2g Fine Flake Salt and 0.1g Garlic Powder, if you prefer... or remove garlic completely for 99x recipe.

Note: The Clove is very low in the recipe, so be careful when weighing it. It is best to weigh out 0.15g first and then split that portion in half.

The recipe is for use with the usual 200g flour and 21g-24g Salt depending on personal taste.

[ayamgoreng]

Dec 1, 2016 16:21:48 GMT Ken_Griffiths said:

I would describe my 213 mix as slightly darker and redder, so this may also mean I need to try a different chilli/red pepper ... I currently use McCormick's cayenne powder and clearly 99x uses some kind of chilli flakes, which are visible to the naked eye.

Anyhow taste-wise, my 213 mix seemed hotter than 99x, but I can't say whether or not 99x contains ginger, even now, despite my best efforts.

Hi Ken,

Thank you for sharing with us your initial observation of your 213 mix earlier.

It is interesting and worth looking further why with the absent of Ginger, your 213 become "redder" and "hotter" than 99x. I have seen that most of your earlier recipes (135, 164 etc - which you mentioned 'indistinguishable' to 99x) you were using same level of Peppers and Chilli/Cayenne (and Basil too) as in 213.

Is it due to the 'effect' of Ginger onto the herbs, or probably different type of Chilli/Cayenne you used between those recipes? But Ginger too IMO is a 'hot' stuff, isn't it?

Halim

[Ken_Griffiths]

Halim,

I can't comment on the redness of the earlier recipes 135, 151 or 164 etc. because I was looking at their taste and aroma only at the time. As 'silly' as it may sound, I never thought to put those mixes side-by-side with 99x and photograph them under the same light source, to see if their colour appearances were the same. That's until recently.

What I can now definitely say though is there is certainly no 'island spice' brand of Jamaican Ginger in 99x. That particular Ginger is quite beige in colour and even at 1/4 tsp changes recipes like 164 from looking similar to 99x to actually looking very beige in colour and IMHO is the wrong colour completely, as shown in this recently taken comparison image shown below:

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#A3Grq0zwGq3yag;D1AAD634-F29D-4C46-86F0-9B1DEEA7C4E4

Left is 19.5g 99x with 6g of salt ground.

In the middle is a recipe with no Ginger at all ... mixed with 21.5g of salt (note the salt level in 99x appears to be very slightly saltier, but it's close enough for the test). This no Ginger recipe is similar to 164 ... note I did NOT use garlic salt in this version, instead I used 1.3g plain salt and 0.1g garlic powder instead.

Recipe on the right is 164, but it has the island spice Jamaican Ginger and marjoram in place of the bay Leaf (it is also mixed with 21.5g salt)... see my thoughts below...

My Initial Conclusions:
Recipe 164 has the usual Jamaican Ginger in it from this company called island spice and whilst there is only 1/4 tsp it does change the colour of the mix to a beige colour and therefore is definitely not in 99x ... I should say just this brand/colour of Ginger is not in 99x. I need to get some McCormicks or Marion Kay's Ginger which presumably is not so beige coloured.

Attachment Deleted
Click to enlarge image.

My second conclusion is that the colour is closer, but not an exact match between the 99x and the no Ginger recipe version, but I had set the Basil and Savory higher to 0.35g in the 'No Ginger Recipe' in the centre.

I can see from the photo that the ground 99x is a shade greyer and therefore maybe has something darker/blacker in it .. it might be the type of black Pepper I used, as I have run out of Marion Kay's black peppercorns, but it could be we are missing the black ingredient like the sort of thing seen in vial C to make it a shade greyer.

I think I could get a better match if I were to get some Marion Kay Ginger and re-create recipe 164 again .. if it doesn't match colour-wise then something is wrong. That could be a case that there is no Ginger or it might be something else is missing or incorrect...?

I have also made a no Ginger mix which contained 4.5g nigella seeds, but it's not presently shown in these photos but it clearly has 'obvious' black specks which are not visible in the 99x .. that seems to hint at there are no black ground up nigella seeds in the mix or I have far too much of that ingredient in the current mix, but I have a further bit of testing to do with that particular ingredient...

I would like to explore the fact as to whether there is any ginger in 99x further first, as the colour match between the first two samples in the photo is a much closer match, but I need the Marion Kay Ginger to be sure of what I am seeing.

It is clear though from the colour matching ... (or non-matching), that neither recipe (with the current ingredients used) are a 'perfect’ match for 99x.

I'm pretty sure then (even at this stage) there is no island spice Jamaican Ginger in 99x... it's beige colour just simply does not match the colour of 99x.

I might get some McCormick's ginger powder (when I next go shopping) and try that next ... and see if that makes a difference... if not then it needs to be tried with some Marion Kay ginger powder, which I will have to import later.

It's early days but I think these type of colour tests colour (side by side) are useful and a good indicator.

I unfortunately had a slight cold and at the time of doing this comparison, so I could not tell which recipe smelt closest to 99x, but from past tests 164 with Bayleaf was closest before ... so I will create that next time with and without the McCormick's Ginger and perhaps compare those to 99x.

With regards to the hotness of the recipe, yes I appreciate that Ginger gives a warm/hot taste and aftertaste, but I still felt that recipe 213 seemed slightly hotter. I can only say these things with 'honesty' even if they do appear to contradict other things. I try to speak as I find and please bear in mind that this is only one persons opinion and I am trying to provide as much evidence as I can when I do my research, in the hope it may help others in their own research too.

Ken

[Ken_Griffiths]

Halim,

I'm still doing a lot of tests behind the scenes and I'm working to find a mix that looks/smells/tastes closest (or exact) to the 99x mix, which then will help me, or others here, to identify the correct ingredients in the Colonels recipe that should total to the 10g (not including MSG) and thereafter will scale to the 100lb Barrel in whole, or part, pounds. That's the line of research I'm currently following, but these things take time, as I'm sure you realise.

I certainly still have a lot of work to do and numerous paths to follow up on. I can see you are doing very similar work yourself, which is really nice to see.

Ken

[ayamgoreng]

Dec 2, 2016 2:28:07 GMT Ken_Griffiths said:

I might get some McCormick's ginger powder (when I next go shopping) and try that next ... and see if that makes a difference... if not then it needs to be tried with some Marion Kay ginger powder, which I will have to import later.

Ken

Ken,

Just my little suggestion....

If your next test with McCormick's Ginger on 164 is somehow positive in appearance but negative in taste, before you import your MK's ginger, I think maybe you can try this out - Dry and grind your own local fresh ginger, and then re-create 164 with it. If this too proven negative, then there is no choice but you have to import MK's ginger...

I found out that McCormick's Ginger that is sold in my country is so weak in taste IMO it is almost tasteless. I don't know about the same brand sold in other countries.

Halim