Ground (self) Allspice/Pimento

[ThePieMan]

[ThePieMan]

Oops! Commercially Ground.

It says on the label, "Nelken Pfeffer"
Nelken is Cloves, but Nelkenpfeffer is, "Pimenta dioica."

[Ken_Griffiths]

On the subject of Allspice...

This was one recipe I found (on paper) using Jamaican Allspice, which fits 10g. I opted for Jamaican Allspice rather than any other, as it is higher in essential oils and supposedly has a more Clove, Nutmeg & Cinnamon-like flavour.

According to some online articles about this 'Pimento' or Jamaican Pepper, it's essential-oil and eugenol content can vary, between as much as 30% and 90% ... so it maybe a case of discovering the 'cultivar' (or 'type' of Allspice) that works best. It's also possibly one good reason, as to why the Colonel may have teamed up with the chemist, William Stange, to produce an oleoresin, based on Allspice oil, but with a consistent level of eugenol, but I guess the same thing could also be said of Clove, or even eugenol-based Artificial Vanillin (which is a different taste to Vanilla by the way).

Anyhow, here is the recipe. It was the only one I could find with these chosen ingredients that was compliant with the ASTA spice conversion tables:

Recipe KG-69/2017 (ASTA Compliant)
MSG 3/4 tsp (3g) (Not in Vial)
White Pepper (Indonesia Muntok) (ground) 1-1/4 tsp (3g) (Vial G)
Black Pepper (Indian Tellicherry) (ground) 1 tsp (2.1g) (Vial K)
Garlic Salt 1/4 tsp (1.3g) ...(or use 1.125g Fine Salt & 0.175g Garlic Powder) (Not in Vial)
Sage (Dalmatian) (ground) 1 tsp (0.7g) (Vial D)
Coriander Seed (ground) 3/8 tsp (0.675g) (Vial A)
Ginger (Jamaican) (ground) 3/8 tsp (0.675g) (Vial F)
Red Chilli Pepper or Cayenne (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.45g) (Vial J)
Summer Savory (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.35g) (Vial B)
Pimento/Allspice (Jamaican) (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.2375g) (Vial C)
Oregano (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.1875g) (Vial H)
Basil (ground)1/8 tsp (0.175g) (Vial E)
Rosemary (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.15g) (Vial I)
Total Recipe Weight 10g (13g including MSG)

Recipe is for use with 22g-24g Salt and 200g Fine Cake Flour. The recipe is best made by using the approx. weight of each ingredient.

I will add that I have not yet tasted the recipe above, as I currently do not have any Jamaican Allspice in my store cupboard. I have seen it to buy in the Gourmet/Chef version of Schwartz/McCormick's spices and also at a local supermarket (Asda/Walmart), which sells 'whole' dried Jamaican Pimento Berries in their 'world/international food' section, but I just haven't got round to buying any at the moment. To be truthful, Allspice is not one of my personal favourite KFC recipe ingredients, but it could be a case (maybe) of just finding the correct cultivar, as mentioned above.

A couple of informal notes to accompany the above recipe (for information only):

1 - It's possible to exchange the weight/volume of Ginger and Chilli and still keep the recipe ASTA compliant and in keeping with known container labelling.
2 - It's possible to exchange the weight/volume of Savory and Basil and still keep the recipe ASTA compliant and in keeping with known container labelling. I chose to put Savory higher in the recipe, because Shirley Topmiller (The Colonel's Secretary) once revealed 'that The Colonel learned from his Mother that Sage and Savory are good seasonings for Chicken'... or words similar, but along those lines, as mentioned here:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/KFC_Original_Recipe

Ken

[Ken_Griffiths]

Some more useful information regarding Allspice, aka Jamaican Black Pepper:

www.britannica.com/plant/allspice

[ThePieMan]

Hi Ken,

I hope you and your kin are keeping well in these troubled days. Nice, comprehensive and interesting speculation on Allspice. When I get the chance, I will give it a shot, FIRST with what I have on hand, SECOND with the recommended cultivars. "Recommended cultivars" cost money, especially if they are for a one of trial ;-) but I guess there is always hope it is not a one off trial :-D

I've been recently busy with another challenge of mine, the proper and correct determination of the pastry dough and its preparation for the making of Australia's (in)famous Chiko Roll. I believe that I am getting very close to fully understanding what it is, how it was developed and made and how it became what it is today. this is not a nostalgia exercise, but more in the line of an, "Expat with a dire homesick need," kinda exercise. I did this with making cheese out of UHT milk, whilst in China, discovering how to make good Aussie pie base whilst in Vietnam, and the Chiko Roll has long been a target. But... CKFOR has frequently managed to push its way to the fore and demand some of my attention and still does. tempus fugit! Gotta move house shortly. Yet I still do what I can when can sneak off for a moment or two. Lots of videos to still produce too... too much to do and not enough... planning.

[Ken_Griffiths]

TPM

A couple of years ago, whilst on holiday. I came across a specialist 'herb & spice' shop that imported ingredients from all over the world. It was run by a very helpful lady and her family, who had a passion for such things. The shop sold bulk-purchased ingredients, in (multiple) ounces, in small plastic bags, which in turn were labelled by hand at the point of sale.

I purchased quite a few things from the store, one of them being 2oz of Whole Allspice Berries. The only problem is, I have absolutely no idea of its country of origin etc.

Anyhow, a long story short, I used them, at the time, during my own cooking and research into a variety of KFC recipes. The different 'cultivars' (types) for such ingredients were never really any concern for me at that time... My 'mistaken' and 'narrow' view of things then, was that Allspice (and many other herbs & spices) were more or less the same, the World over. I now of course realise I was completely wrong to think of such things, in that way. Ingredients, like Allspice are not the same from different Countries and its Country of Origin is possibly very important when it comes to its 'true' or 'correct' flavour required for some recipes.

Anyhow, I used the Allspice Berries purchased and found they introduced a strong floral aroma to my cooked KFC Chicken recipes that I was trialling at the time. So my viewpoint was that Allspice was not correct in the recipe.

So I admit I dismissed and set-aside Allspice from the OR, because of my own mis-guided experience. Having now realised my mistake, I now feel that I should revisit the ingredient again.

Researching Allspice again, from scratch, it appears that the 'original' Jamaican variety, contains the most eugenol amongst its chemical composition and is described as tasting like a mix of Clove, Nutmeg and Cinnamon, hence I have suggested that 'cultivar' in the recipe 69/2017. I admit though, I don't have any Jamaican Allspice in my store cupboard to tryout this theory.

To create recipe 69/2017, I chose to remove Bay-Leaf from my previous recipes, as I see that ingredient as having very slightly less supporting evidence, compared to some of the other ingredients that I often use. Plus Bay-Leaf does also contain the eugenol chemical compound. My next choice after that would have been to remove Basil, but I think Basil works extremely well in any KFC recipe. So I opted to set aside the Bay-Leaf for this new recent area of research.

The good thing is, I can perhaps later 'argue the point' that Allspice would be a much better candidate to match the content of the dark coloured vial C.

Having replaced the Bay-Leaf with Allspice (on paper), I then set about trying to find the usual 10g precise ratio recipe size, whilst using the exact teaspoon weight of each chosen ingredient in the recipe, as per the weights shown in the ASTA conversion tables, as published in another thread of this forum.

Recipe 69/2017, was the only resulting 'common sense' recipe I could find, based on the ASTA ingredient weights, that's apart from the two minor adjustments I have commented on in the 'informal notes' that accompany the recipe.

So I think it's worthwhile to explore this matter further and to see if the recipe brings the research any closer to the real taste of KFC of old and to establish if it produces more of 'The Note' that we are all searching for.

Ken

[Ken_Griffiths]

Links to McCormicks Jamaican Allspice:

Ground:
www.mccormick.com/gourmet/spices-and-flavors/spices/allspice-ground-jamaican

Whole Berries:
www.mccormick.com/gourmet/spices-and-flavors/spices/allspice-whole-jamaican

[Ken_Griffiths]

TPM

I hadn't forgotten about your comments about a Chiko Roll by the way, I just had to go and find out what one was first, as it's not something we have over here in the U.K. I see it's similar to a Chinese Spring Roll, but with shredded vegetables and lamb etc. Lots of different recipes on the internet for them using a variety of ingredients. You'll have to maybe post your recipe video at some point so we can see it and maybe give it a go.

I have a recipe too for shredded vegetables and some left-over chicken, which we use to make Indian style pakora, which are also deep fried. I will dig it out and send you the recipe via a PM for you to maybe try out at some point.

Ken

[ThePieMan]

Thanks for that.

Chiko Roll – The inventor was an Anglo-Australian boilermaker and part-time weekend kitchen warrior doing catering with his bro. But what he made... ? Its a Chinesey-like, deep fried, Cornish Roll, crossed with Lancashire Hotpot. Very solidly grounded in the British School of Cookery, with a tilt of the cap at the Chinese Spring Roll (think cabbage). Essentially, it is not even remotely Chinese, which is were all the inquiry, and fuss and "knowledgeable commentary," even from famous chefs (who should know better,) is sadly, frustratingly, and ignorantly, miss-directed. – jm2cw on that topic 

[Ken_Griffiths]

It it was to ever establish a case that Jamaican Allspice, Jamaican Ginger, Chilli and Garlic were amongst the Colonels secret recipe ingredients, then it may strongly suggest that he was influenced by that particular Caribbean style of cuisine.

I have seen things on websites and on YouTube where people claim the secret recipe came from a black woman from that region and it makes me also wonder if Eula Gordon, who was mentioned in 'The Colonel' autobiography by John E. Pearce, was from that part of the World? I'm convinced it was one of her recipes that was given to the Chicago Tribune newspaper by the Colonels nephew, Joe Leddington.


Or perhaps it was some other friend, or a member of his cafe staff, who may have played a much bigger role in the original recipe than we currently realise.

Mind you, taking some ingredients from one recipe and combining them with other ingredients, like Italian herbs etc. from another recipe, still makes CHS the real founder of the recipe and its only what a lot of cooks do anyway, isn't it?

The recipe would almost be like a cross between a Creole style or Jamaican jerk chicken recipe, together with herbs-de-Provence, or an Italian herb mix, coupled with traditional southern fried chicken... I guess that in itself is quite clever, but then when you go onto add the unique 'pressure frying' process into the mix aswell, that's what turned the Colonel into a great cook and it made him stand out above many others during the post war era.

I can see why the likes of Pete Harman, John Brown Jnr. and Jack Massey, were committed and quite eager to be part of the Colonels early entraupenurial adventure. Who would think that fried chicken could achieve the enormous success it has?

Anyhow here's a video (one of many I'm sure) that claims that the Colonel paid $1200 his recipe from a Kentucky black woman called Miss Childress:



If so, what a bargain he got for his $1200. ha ha

Ken

[Ken_Griffiths]

I think if Allspice does actually form part of the Colonels original recipe, then this extract document below, taken from the 12th GRAS report in 2001 maybe significant. See page 5 (marked Page 40 in bottom left hand corner) where the section is entitled 'Safety Assessment of Methyl Eugenol' relating to the chemical compound that is present in both Allspice and Sweet Basil.

Clearly the document highlights concerns around Methyl Eugenol consumption and it may explain why the original recipe Chicken these days does not taste like it did in the 1960's or 1970's ... it is possibly the case that the food industry reduced Methyl Eugenol in recipes to help reduce the overall annual human consumption of the chemical compound, because it was known to give rise to certain medical conditions in rats during a two year study of the substance, despite it being GRAS (Generally Recognised As Safe) for Human consumption. Such a reduction may have been a precautionary measure and I'm now wondering if the FDA would have issued some guidelines around this chemical compound and maybe placed limits on the amount to be used by the large corporations.

www.ift.org/~/media/Food%20Technology/pdf/2001/12/1201feat_gras20.pdf

Well if it isn't that, then I suspect the corporation just simply selected inferior herbs and spices with a lower level of Eugenol, because I'm pretty sure I remember that Clove-like flavour in the recipe when I was a young man. A taste which is greatly reduced in the original recipe, I think, these days.

I think the findings in the 2001 GRAS report may have had some effect on the flavour of the Colonels original recipe... but this is just an opinion at this moment in time.

[ThePieMan]

Interesting stuff, Ken.


...Oh man! I just read that report! That MUST explain why there is soooo much belly-aching in the KFC OR replicator community...


"...it's my carcinogen, and no you can't have any. It's mine I tell you, All Mine!!! ... ... ... my precious, myyy preeeciousss..."

[Ken_Griffiths]

ha ha... I always said there was something in the chicken that seemed to tip a few of the old researchers over the edge.

It explains everything !

[Ken_Griffiths]

A little bit more information about Allspice, just to add to this thread. See below links:

www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/a/allsp025.html

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allspice

www.britannica.com/plant/allspice

[Ken_Griffiths]

Talking with Dustin (dProvo) and a few others yesterday. My attention was drawn once again to this well known image:


Click to enlarge image.

What struck me about it, was the ingredient order (by weight) in relation to the two ingredients, Ginger and Allspice.. so assuming it may have inspired the Colonel it made me think Jamaican Allspice might be a little higher in the recipe than I first thought. If so,then this was the next most likely recipe I was able to find, whilst keeping the Pepper levels reasonably high, the herbs low and making the recipe comply with both the ASTA conversion tables and known corporate labelling.

Recipe KG-71/2017 (ASTA Compliant)
MSG 3/4 tsp (3g)
White Pepper (Indonesia Muntok) (ground) 1-1/4 tsp (3g) (Vial G)
Black Pepper (Indian Tellicherry) (ground) 1 tsp (2.1g) (Vial K)
Garlic Salt 1/4 tsp (1.3g) ...(or use 1.125g Fine Salt & 0.175g Garlic Powder)
Sage (Dalmatian) (ground) 1 tsp (0.7g) (Vial D)
Coriander Seed (ground) 3/8 tsp (0.675g) (Vial A)
Pimento/Allspice (Jamaican) (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.475g) (Vial C)
Ginger (Jamaican) (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.45g) (Vial F)
Red Chilli Pepper or Cayenne (ground) 1/4 tsp (0.45g) (Vial J)
Summer Savory (ground) 3/16 tsp (0.2625g) (Vial B)
Rosemary (ground) 3/16 tsp (0.225g) (Vial I)
Oregano (ground) 1/8 tsp (0.1875g) (Vial H)
Basil (ground)1/8 tsp (0.175g) (Vial E)
Total Recipe Weight 10g (13g including MSG)

As normal, the recipe is for use with 22-24g Salt and 200g Fine Cake/Sponge Flour.

I strongly recommend that anyone trying the recipe, uses good quality ingredients, in particular I suggest using Jamaican Allspice, Jamaican Ginger and a good quality Summer Savory, like those available from Marion Kay. It's important to measure, or weigh, the ingredients as accurately as possible. All ingredient volumes shown are for the ingredients after they have been pre-ground. My personal recommendation is to weigh each ingredient rather than using the teaspoon volumes stated.

Ken