Anise Seed question

[silver]

How many grams of Anise Seed (Aniseed) would be required whereby to nominally duplicate the amount of anethole/licorice flavor present within one gram of Star-Anise?

[willy]

I don't know, but I think the analysis should be in the aftertaste of each. I can't say that either is a given. Some seeds survive the heat so well, they are used almost exclusively in baking, and in non-cooked fermented foods.

[silver]

I just did a taste test of Aniseed and ground Star-Anise, and to me they were quite close on the licorice score. But there are a lot of flavors which present themselves within Star Anise which are not evident in Aniseed. Eating Star-Anise is almost like eating candy. My thinking is that if only licorice is desired then Aniseed gets the nod, but if licorice plus cinnamon plus sweetness (almost reminiscent of Stevia, but nowhere near as strong as for pure raw Stevia, yet with a distinctive artificial sweetener "like" aftertaste) is desired go with Star Anise.

[cascader]

Feb 27, 2022 19:48:56 GMT willy said:

I don't know, but I think the analysis should be in the aftertaste of each. I can't say that either is a given. Some seeds survive the heat so well, they are used almost exclusively in baking, and in non-cooked fermented foods.

“Some seeds” could include caraway, for example, which is used in baking and fermented foods like vinegar or brine based coleslaw and sauerkraut, and have an anise like flavor, and survive heat very well.

[silver]

Feb 27, 2022 12:46:52 GMT silver said:

How many grams of Anise Seed (Aniseed) would be required whereby to nominally duplicate the amount of anethole/licorice flavor present within one gram of Star-Anise?

I just read where the pure oil called 'Anethole' is, gram for gram, 13 times sweeter than table sugar.  That ground Star-Anise tastes sugary sweet like candy and ground Aniseed does not should be a direct and positive indicator that the quantity of Anethole oil within Anise Seeds can not come close (gram for gram) to the Anethole oil level of Star-Anise.

I'm now becoming more and more convinced that there is roughly 3-1/3 more Anethole oil present within Star-Anise than for Aniseed.  So my current estimate is that it should require roughly 3-1/3 grams of Aniseed whereby to impart the nominal licorice equivalent flavor of 1 gram of Star-Anise.

Any guess I made previously in this regard should be ignored and supplanted with this new line of reasoning.  

[silver]

Star-Anise yields about 12.3% oil by weight on average. Anise Seed yields about 4% oil on average. The two oils are relatively comparable as to their percentage of Anethole.

12.3/4 = 3.075

Therefore (on average) it should require close to 3.1 grams of Anise Seed to impart the same level of licorice flavor as for 1 gram of Star-Anise. This is reasonably close to my latest empirically derived assessment.

But a major issue here is that there are huge +/- range bars associated with the oil content percentage for each of these spices. For example, Anise Seed is said to contain ~2% to ~6% oil by weight, with (by inference) ~4% as the average.

[silver]

I've been achieving great flavor via adding 0.50 grams of Anise Seed plus 0.25 grams of Nutmeg, 0.20 grams of Clove, 0.15 grams of Mace, and 0.10 grams of Cinnamon to my recipes built upon a base of 200 grams of flour.

My current speculative logic is that I 'may' nominally be able to alter this to roughly as follows if I replace Anise Seed with Star-Anise:

0.25 grams Nutmeg
0.17 grams Star-Anise
0.17 grams Clove
0.15 grams Mace
Zero Cinnamon

And with additional speculation:

0.50 grams Nutmeg
0.17 grams Star-Anise
0.17 grams Clove
Zero Mace
Zero Cinnamon

My best recipe to date contains 13 H&S. If my speculation pans out I can reduce this to 11 H&S.

[willy]

Factors to consider: Solubility of both in fat and/or water; Results of toasting; Aftertaste; Companionship with other elements; Effects of heat when cooking.

[silver]

Attempting to bring more Anethole/Estragole (licorice) contributors into the fold (with loads of guesswork and speculation mixed with limited research) as to their ballpark relative equivalence of licorice flavor contribution:

1 gram Star-Anise (as combined pod and seeds) ~= 3 grams Anise Seed ~= 6 grams Fennel Seed ~= 12 grams dried French Tarragon Leaves ~= 24 grams Caraway Seed

The error bars here are huge...


Ballpark extending this into nominally presumed to be efficacious quantities of licorice with respect to a seasoned flour mix built upon a base of 200 grams of flour (with rounding):

~0.17 grams Star-Anise
~0.50 grams Anise Seed
~1 gram Fennel Seed
~2 grams dried French Tarragon Leaves
~4 grams Caraway Seed

Edit:  Russian Tarragon will not likely contribute anywhere near as much licorice nature as for French.  Use due caution here as to the source of your Tarragon.  It may be best to grow it yourself and dry it in a food dehydrator. 

[silver]

Since I can no longer edit the above post, this is my latest updated thinking with regard to achieving a nominal licorice flavor equivalence:

1 gram Star-Anise (as combined pod and seeds) ~= 3 grams Anise Seed ~= 9 grams Fennel Seed ~= 15 grams dried French Tarragon Leaves ~= 24 grams Caraway Seed

Confidence is greatest for the first three (Star-Anise, Anise Seed, and Fennel Seed). Not much confidence as to Tarragon and Caraway.

As purely an aside, a mixture of 1/3 parts Anise Seed and 2/3 parts Caraway Seed (either by weight or volume) is said to make for a rather decent 1 part (either by weight or volume) Fennel Seed substitute in a pinch.