The Black Spice...

[Deleted]

It is muscovado raw cane sugar, which was common throughout the South in the old days (origin - Louisiana). CHS used a variation of the same as a thickener in his BBQ sauce.

[Ken_Griffiths]

Sept 26, 2016 22:01:36 GMT @smallgree said:

It is muscovado raw cane sugar, which was common throughout the South in the old days (origin - Louisiana). CHS used a variation of the same as a thickener in his BBQ sauce.

The one thing that seems to go against the sugar you suggest Fred, is the USDA nutrient table for KFC original recipe chicken. Their analysis shows 'zero' grams of ANY sugars in KFC Original Recipe Chicken including skin and breading.

Here are some links to the USDA lab examination:

Report Summary:
ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/6916?manu=&fgcd=&ds=

Full Report:
ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/6916?fgcd=&man=&lfacet=&count=&max=&sort=&qlookup=&offset=&format=Full&new=&measureby=

I'm also not sure people would view the muscovado cane sugar as being a herb or a spice, debatable perhaps?

Just further reasons why I keep returning to Clove in Vial C. I can't seem to get away from it being in the original recipe.

This link too Fred, may prove to be relevant, when in comes to the identity of vial C: kfc11.proboards.com/post/306

Ken

[Deleted]

The sugar may have been put in the salt or the flour. You have not seen the USDA tables for the salt or flour bags/boxes. We are talking prior to 1964. 1971 chicken was not sweet, 1959 chicken was.

[Ken_Griffiths]

Fred,

Could the reason that the drop in sweetness that you have describe, have been because of the switch from Dextrose, that was listed on the early Corporate 'combined' seasoning/flour bag, to the less-sweet Maltodextrin?

Both those starch-based products would be less likely to burn at high temperature compared to sugar too... well possibly!

I have both Dextrose and Maltodextrin in my store cupboard and they do seem to work well in the flour mix. They are both very widely used in making Sausage too.

[Deleted]

I'm convinced that raw cane sugar was used. How exactly is still under research. It is dark, and high in sulphur content, which would explain the clove-allspice-cinnamon taste in the early chicken, and the dark compact texture of the substance in vial C. Molasses is a sluthern staple for bbq sauce.

[Ken_Griffiths]

Sept 27, 2016 20:46:24 GMT @smallgree said:

I'm convinced that raw cane sugar was used. How exactly is still under research. It is dark, and high in sulphur content, which would explain the clove-allspice-cinnamon taste in the early chicken, and the dark compact texture of the substance in vial C. Molasses is a sluthern staple for bbq sauce.

Yes, indeed Fred, it is worthy of further research. Beaded Molasses were an ingredient in the Colonel's BBQ sauce recipe, but would people really consider it to be either a herb or a spice? ... I'm not too sure about that myself and why was there no sugar found at all in the USDA nutrient analysis, which did include the breading?

My money is still on Vial C being 'Clove' included at a low level in the original recipe, I think to help support the eugenol taste that's found in Basil,Thyme and similar herbs.

[Deleted]

I don't believe it was used after 1964, and surely wouldn't show up in any USDA nutrient analysis. Remember Ken, I'm not trying to duplicate 1970's chicken, but pre-1964 chicken. Also, CHS was not a rocket scientist and probably didn't define things as we do. Also, there was powdered molasses in those days.

[nitebeat]

We all know CHS loved canada, did he use maple surup in some way or something derived from it ?

[Ken_Griffiths]

Sept 29, 2016 22:29:34 GMT nitebeat said:

We all know CHS loved canada, did he use maple surup in some way or something derived from it ?

Nitebeat,

There is some support for a Sugar & Maple syrup in the Corbin Museum. See these images from the museum Kitchen:

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#A3Grq0zwGq3yag;3AD5F5CB-BE91-4732-AD7C-21CF216D40F8

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#A3Grq0zwGq3yag;AB343DC3-B06D-49BD-9E6E-0D4EA9ECABE7

[ThePieMan]

Hi folks, just chiming in again. Its the new year, my birthday's on the other side of another night, and the family is fixing to move to Shanghai in the coming first quarter. That means, all my play toys have to go.

Which brings me to spices. It occurs to me that I have never considered before, making up my very own set of vials of ground spice, and sticking them in a safe (place) and leaving them to wither and age over time, then photographing them before and after for comparison with the orig. photo. Has anybody else done so?

Another thought I've been rumbling around is how were the spices originally ground? Were they all ground to a uniform sieve size? Hand ground in a mortar and pestle? Other? I think this is also important to consider because particle size has a fundamental impact on taste and uniformity of distribution in mixed powders.

I've not had any success in finding any further info about the spice trade in the early to mid 20th C, nor found any historical references in predominantly Caucasian sourced cookery books, so historically speaking it seems we're back to the Marrion Kay Order form. Hope that helps.

One last thought, on the black spice (or is it a herb?) Sugar is not and never has been referred to a either a herb or a spice, regardless of colour of form. Again, one need look at the concept of fineness of powders to note the even dark crystalline sugars, as they are ground finer, take on a lighter shade than their original darker crystalline appearance. To maintain the darkness, there needs to be a certain amount of water present, and this is clearly not indicated in vial C. jm2cw.

Dunno what the future holds for me and mine, but certainly, play time, for me, is coming to a close... for now.

Cheerio Buckos!

(now… who's cooking this chook?)

[ThePieMan]

Just stumbling around the web again and stubbed my toe on "Black Cocoa Powder". FWIW I believe that CS would have definitely been familiar with such a product and its characteristics, as a spice. Its an exotic, and it comes in various shades from dark brown to black. Its certainly not sweet either. Perhaps this is a new area for further investigation. Just passing it along whilst I search for possibilities for "powdered black herb" or, "powdered black spice"

Cheers.

TT

[ThePieMan]

This topic is such a lovely little taunt.The spices and herbs available to us today is mind boggling. Thus it is far too easy to get caught up in,"oh! maybe this, or…no! maybe that… or…" and loose sight of the constraints upon us: that of what was available at the time when CHS developed his famous fried chook recipe.

I do believe he originally developed the recipe for rabbit, but people though him hopping mad, and urged him to stick with chickin' but that's a squabble for another day… 

Black Spice Powder. Not all black spices are actually black. Strange but true! Until I ground some of the black spices in my home I was under the grip of assumption. As we all know, one should never assume as it…  long story.

Here are some spices I ground up. flic.kr/p/QQzoeA

In order of Blackness:
1. Whole Vanilla Bean (Tahitian Vanilla, Grand Crue Tahaa)
2. Tasmanian Pepperberry
3. Nigella Seed
4. Cloves
5. Long Pepper
6. Black Cardamom

Nigella Seed was one of the substitutes I suggested earlier in this thread. What surprised me was the vanilla bean. This was made by grinding dried, whole pods into a powder.

[Deleted]

My 20 year old whole cayenne pepper, that I grew, is as dark as the ace of spades.

[questfor11]

Sept 6, 2016 16:18:18 GMT Ken_Griffiths said:

TheTaxidermist,

I like really your post above.

Yes, the black vials have been a mystery for a long time. It is noteable that the vials were not put on public display until many years after they were commissioned by The Corporation. The vials do have some damage and it's noteable that the labels 'A' and 'B' are not as faded as the rest.

I think either by age, design or maybe by deliberate act, the vials, probably do not give the 'regular' appearance of some items that form part of the Colonel's Original Recipe. I do however believe that the vials are a true content representation, but that things may not be discovered simply by relying on their appearance alone.

I can best sum that up by saying this.. Take some nice fresh green basil leaves and chop them up and leave them for a week or two and you will see they turn black. Many times I have had to throw away my own basil because of it turning black. So if I were to perhaps dry it and grind it and put it vial C, for example, I doubt anyone would guess what it is by its appearance. It's then also likely to change colour again and fade overtime...but is it a true representation of basil? er .. Yes, of course it is, in terms of content, but it's appearance is totally misleading.

So the point I am trying to get across is, that I do believe the vials do contain a 'true representation' of the Colonel's 11 herbs and spices, but not all of them have, what we would call their 'regular' appearance.

Do I now believe Vanilla forms part of the Colonel's Original Recipe .. my honest answer is 'No'. Certainly not fresh fresh vanilla, it is not really affordable. Could it therefore be imitation Vanilla Powder ... er possibly, because that's how Bill Summers began his Marion Kay company and I have a photo of his early flyers to prove that fact.

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#A3Grq0zwGq3yag;37930BB6-FD63-4342-86BA-859CC05F32C2

So could one of the dark vials be vanilla powder ... Maybe ! ...However, if I am pushed to give an answer on any form of vanilla, one way or the other, I would now say there is no Vanilla at all and that's because I don't think it survives well in high 'frying' temperatures.

There is one more ingredient that I now also have my doubts about, simply because it is so very expensive ...and that is Cardamom. It's also my favorite spice in many of my other (non-KFC) recipes, but I have never ever tasted that ingredient in any KFC chicken that I have purchased in the past 30 years. If it turns out that I am proven wrong here, then all I can say is, it must be in very low quantity in the O.R. so as to be hardly detectable. It can bring a slight freshness to the finished cooked chicken, but I'm now starting to think that it's not an ingredient that The Colonel would have used.

And whilst I am in the mood to openly express my opinions, I'm also not the biggest fan of Clove either, but unlike Cardamom, I do think Clove at very low levels (1/8tsp or below) in a 10g herbs and spice recipe, works well and it can bring a 'musty', almost slight eugenol taste, to the chicken and I seem to recall that aniseed-like, occasional taste, in the KFC chicken that I used to buy in the 1970's. That taste however, is certainly not evident to me in today's KFC shop-bought chicken. Perhaps my taste is fading and has changed, due to age.

My family and friends think the mild Clove-like taste can possibly be gleaned from using herbs such as Basil and Oregano.. That maybe true and it's something I am currently researching myself with a new recipe I am developing with members of this and other forums.

My personal (re)search has changed direction for a variety of reasons recently, but that's perhaps too long-winded to discuss here, or bore people with, but put simply I am putting less reliance on the appearance of the vials for the reason I mention above, even though I am convinced their actual content is genuine.

So in summary, I would say to everyone who is researching the Colonel's Secret Original Recipe, to simply 'keep an open enquiring mind' and to remember we should not believe everything that we see, or hear.

I don't think MK offered any type of "powdered" imitation vanilla. From the looks of that flyer you link to I'm only seeing bottled liquid extracts.

[willy]

questfor11, I appreciate your information. We need more of this, rather than an immediate turn towards the negative. I once considered one of the dark vials to be basil, until I grew and dried it. Fresh basil turns black, but properly dried basil remains green. I realized that they wouldn't have put raw basil into a vial. I also believe that most folks are so concerned with creating the note, that they think there is one or two specific elements that creates that note. If fact, we often use too many powerful ingredients that drown out what actually comprised the note, which IMO, was a total blend of all the elements. You can't get that with one or two elements. In fact, it often kills the note. You can't roller skate without balance.

BTW, I used vanilla powder and was not impressed.