The Black Spice...

[ThePieMan]

For a long time I've had some reservations about the use of Vanilla in the O.R. While it is a nice addition, I do not believe it to be a spice of choice, particularly Tahitian Vanilla, in all of its three different variations.

You can see my complete musings and rantings on the topic at my blog, The Bait Layer, which was posted there to save this forum from my occasional late night, beer fuelled, semi-coherent outbursts ;-)

For the purposes of this forum however, I'll quote a small, relevant, section and present some possible suggestions for alternatives, but that's all they are.

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[An] ...area of investigation Not Looked Into is the impact on the spice trade due to growing demands by KFC spice manufacturers for good quality raw materials. This brings us back to the core of my dis-ease with "Tahitian" Vanilla as an ingredient (so sayeth The Pieman. forumup.co.uk is currently down)

Show me the uptick in trade for this comodity against the background of increased sales in KFC and franchise expansion, and you might just win me over.

So, if not Vanilla then what? The three ingredients from above that stand out the most for me are:

• Dried Limes (DIY Method over at Charlie Eats, top one, mate!)
  
• Nigella Seed, and
• Pasilla Chillies

Why these three?

Nigella Seeds: also known as Fennel Flower, Black Cumin, Roman Coriander, and Black Carraway, has been described as tasting like onions, black pepper and oregano. It is a common enough pepper used in North African and continental indian dishses, and is particularly paired with poultry. Knowledge of this spice would have transported with slaves and possibly made its way into Southern Cooking… I have no specific verification for this and am still looking for evidence of its use or trade into the US and Latin America. Certainly it might be masked by common names like those listed here, or perhaps under another trade name.

Dried Limes: also know as black limes are small limes, like Key Limes cooked in brine and then air dried until black. They are commonly used in noth African stews and chutneys. Knowledge of how to make them would have travelled with African Slaves and been applied to Key Limes. It is quite possible that this would be considered so common as to be almost without need, to be mentioned. Again, I have no hard evidence of their usage in Southern Cuisine or their ready availability as a household staple.

Pasilla Chillies: are a Mexican Black Chilli. Others have posited that Red Pepper or Ancho Chilli (a dried chilli) is an ingredient common enough to be known to CHS as an every day staple. So I posit the question if this, then why not Pasillas? I know nothing more about them, but consider them to be local enough to be on the table for consideration.
–––––––––––––––

In the end, we need to question the veracity of the spice vials photo [on which so much "evidence of proof" has been based], the impact of age on spice oxidation, the impact on spice color due to oxidation, AND the impact of light both on the spice and the white balance of the original image. But that is a topic for a different discussion in a different space. 

What are your thoughts on, "Tahitian" Vanilla (and which sub-genus) as an ingredient in the O.R.?

[Ken_Griffiths]

TheTaxidermist,

I like really your post above.

Yes, the black vials have been a mystery for a long time. It is noteable that the vials were not put on public display until many years after they were commissioned by The Corporation. The vials do have some damage and it's noteable that the labels 'A' and 'B' are not as faded as the rest.

I think either by age, design or maybe by deliberate act, the vials, probably do not give the 'regular' appearance of some items that form part of the Colonel's Original Recipe. I do however believe that the vials are a true content representation, but that things may not be discovered simply by relying on their appearance alone.

I can best sum that up by saying this.. Take some nice fresh green basil leaves and chop them up and leave them for a week or two and you will see they turn black. Many times I have had to throw away my own basil because of it turning black. So if I were to perhaps dry it and grind it and put it vial C, for example, I doubt anyone would guess what it is by its appearance. It's then also likely to change colour again and fade overtime...but is it a true representation of basil? er .. Yes, of course it is, in terms of content, but it's appearance is totally misleading.

So the point I am trying to get across is, that I do believe the vials do contain a 'true representation' of the Colonel's 11 herbs and spices, but not all of them have, what we would call their 'regular' appearance.

Do I now believe Vanilla forms part of the Colonel's Original Recipe .. my honest answer is 'No'. Certainly not fresh fresh vanilla, it is not really affordable. Could it therefore be imitation Vanilla Powder ... er possibly, because that's how Bill Summers began his Marion Kay company and I have a photo of his early flyers to prove that fact.

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#A3Grq0zwGq3yag;37930BB6-FD63-4342-86BA-859CC05F32C2

So could one of the dark vials be vanilla powder ... Maybe ! ...However, if I am pushed to give an answer on any form of vanilla, one way or the other, I would now say there is no Vanilla at all and that's because I don't think it survives well in high 'frying' temperatures.

There is one more ingredient that I now also have my doubts about, simply because it is so very expensive ...and that is Cardamom. It's also my favorite spice in many of my other (non-KFC) recipes, but I have never ever tasted that ingredient in any KFC chicken that I have purchased in the past 30 years. If it turns out that I am proven wrong here, then all I can say is, it must be in very low quantity in the O.R. so as to be hardly detectable. It can bring a slight freshness to the finished cooked chicken, but I'm now starting to think that it's not an ingredient that The Colonel would have used.

And whilst I am in the mood to openly express my opinions, I'm also not the biggest fan of Clove either, but unlike Cardamom, I do think Clove at very low levels (1/8tsp or below) in a 10g herbs and spice recipe, works well and it can bring a 'musty', almost slight eugenol taste, to the chicken and I seem to recall that aniseed-like, occasional taste, in the KFC chicken that I used to buy in the 1970's. That taste however, is certainly not evident to me in today's KFC shop-bought chicken. Perhaps my taste is fading and has changed, due to age.

My family and friends think the mild Clove-like taste can possibly be gleaned from using herbs such as Basil and Oregano.. That maybe true and it's something I am currently researching myself with a new recipe I am developing with members of this and other forums.

My personal (re)search has changed direction for a variety of reasons recently, but that's perhaps too long-winded to discuss here, or bore people with, but put simply I am putting less reliance on the appearance of the vials for the reason I mention above, even though I am convinced their actual content is genuine.

So in summary, I would say to everyone who is researching the Colonel's Secret Original Recipe, to simply 'keep an open enquiring mind' and to remember we should not believe everything that we see, or hear.

[dprovo]

Taxidermist,

I agree! If you want the answer, its always on the Marion Kay Order form. Basil and Clove look like prime candidates.

Dustin

[Ken_Griffiths]

dProvo,

It's really good to see you here. Welcome to the kfc11 forum.

It's a very good point about the Marion Kay order form. I would assume that every ingredient that they use to make their 99x, must be on that order-list somewhere.

I'm now pretty convinced that Oregano is in the Colonel's recipe and it certainly looks to me like it could now be vial H, looking at some enhanced photos and comparing it to the photos on the MK website . ..."Place your bets please !!" ha ha

Clove looks like vial C in close-up and although vial E is dark, I think it looks like the photo of ground Basil on the MK website. I have spent a while looking, smelling and tasting things in 99x and I believe things are getting closer now to the original recipe, both in taste and smell.

I'm not saying things are perfect yet, as they are not!!., ... 'something' still eludes me in the raw smelling state of 99x. I just can't quite put my finger on it, but it might be a particular brand, or type of ingredient.

I have many things still in the pipeline to do, as I have discussed with you in the past and thanks very much for all the very helpful support. Things would not have got this far without your help, even whilst the TCK forum has been offline.

I see you have now tried recipe 119 (without the clove) thanks for that too and I appreciate the feedback. I know it's important to keep the herb levels down in the recipes and I am completely restricted by sticking with a 'true' 10g personal scaled-down recipe limit (or 13g including MSG). I think the weight of clove when added to the recipe, albeit a small amount, does add something to the recipe and it does help to raise the recipe-weight and this in-turn helps to keep the herbs lower. It is all just a balancing act by itself.

I think though the clove-level (if clove is in there?) is vitally important to get right in the recipe ... it is very finely balanced ... too high and the recipe tastes awful. Too low and its advantage, that it brings to the original recipe, begins to disappear.

I think Todd Wilbur touched on the clove idea in his TV show, but he couldn't find the correct balance and therefore removed it entirely from his own copy-cat recipe. He didn't have the time, or the customers, to help fine-tune his recipe. I'm surprised that he never revisited his recipe again at some later date. Todd Wilbur's recipe is certainly not 'spot-on' as it stands at the moment.

In today's 'almost tasteless' corporate KFC, the Clove has been allowed to diminish a lot over the years and it has taken something away from the recipe. A taste and smell I still remember as a young man. I appreciate though, that people's tastes and memories can be affected by age and time. So I try to remain open-minded about such things and continue to seek the opinions of others.

Adding Clove also means we then have a total of 11 herbs and spices (matching the exact vials count). Plus we have the added MSG and Garlic-Salt (not in the vials), but on the other-hand it contradicts part of the Winston Shelton Story, who claimed his hand-written recipe list only amounted to 11 ingredients in total. It is confusing - I accept that!! ... I also appreciate that I created recipe 119 (without any Clove) for that very reason, but then I ask myself, which of the 11 vials would really turn out to be the Garlic-Salt?

Would vial C really have turned from 'garlic-white' into 'black' as suggested can happen in a vacuum, at a prolonged given temperature? ...I do sincerely have my doubts. I've tried to argue that case on occasions, but I doubt people really believe such a suggestion.

It's definitely an area for a lot more discussion and research on the forum here, but I would like to see people's opinion of the taste of recipe KG-127/2016 (with a small amount of clove) and then I want to see the reaction to recipe KG-119/2016 (without clove).

Recipe KG-119/2016 has escaped into the 'wild', but I have not formally released it. I will do that perhaps after I get some feedback on KG-127/2016.

The only way to really compare such recipes though, is maybe side-by-side and also together with some shop-bought KFC original recipe chicken. Only then can we be a little more certain, if any clove is in the original recipe and if so, we need to fine-tune its level.

Sadly, such recipe comparison, is time consuming and maybe expensive for some people to do such a taste-test, side by side, with some KFC shop bought chicken and it's not practical for some folk to do that anyway. I doubt I could persuade others to even try such a thing ... to be honest I haven't even done that myself - yet!!

I've always said that in many ways the Colonel was very lucky, in so much that he had his cafe customers there every day that he could test his recipes on ...and he also got a chance to sample his own cooked chicken along the way and make any necessary 'slight' adjustments, until it was perfect. If only we all had such an opportunity.

We all have our own opinions, about things and we all carry some bias into our research. The question about clove being in the original recipe is a difficult one. I really hope we find the correct answer to it, as I see it as being a very important aspect to the overall research.

If vial C is not 'clove', I keep asking myself what else could it be, that is also shown on that MK order form? ...Based on several years of research, I'm struggling to now suggest any other ingredient to take its place.

Ken

[dprovo]

Cooking 127 right now, 119 was simply KFC all over. Hopefully I get get pictures posted so all can see.

Drumroll please.

Dustin

[dprovo]

About a week ago I had made recipe 119 that has cardamom and clove removed, that still consisted of 10g of seasoning and 3g of MSG, mixed with approx 20g of salt and 200g of soft winter wheat flour. 119 MIXED in a spice grinder without the garlic salt smelled and tasted very very close to 99X, when I added the garlic salt I could tell there was a slight difference. Cooked the 1.3g of garlic salt added so much flavor to the recipe, all in a good way, brining back the KFC flavor not anything taken away. Cardamom was replaced with Oregano, vanilla replaced with Garlic Salt, and Clove with Basil. There are reason's for these changes, that go with a lot of ideas, research, and 99X. We could talk about that at a later date, but I'm left with one problem, 1 spice or herb is missing only making 10 with garlic salt. It was the best fried chicken I have ever made. Just within the last hour I cooked up recipe 127, basically the same recipe but this time adding clove. Something to me tasted off in the recipe of 127, so I'm trying to compare 119 and 127. 119 is basically 99X with a few shots of testosterone, not as salty but very very delicious, in both the raw and cooked. Now is Clove not in the recipe or is it included?

Ken perhaps you can compare these two recipes side by side. Im wondering if this is across the board, or if its just my personal taste of not liking cloves.

119 was slightly higher in coriander and cayenne than recipe 127.

I originally thought the Winston Shelton story, the missing 13g was MSG, but that wouldn't work well with the labeling laws scaled down to 100g. We know that MSG always sat high in the recipe even by the old KFC bags and 99X, so it had to be before Sage at about .7g but lower than Black Pepper at about 2.8g, turns out Garlic Salt works perfectly at 13g, it also explains the reason 99X has salt listed before Sage. It was taken out of 99X, and replaced with just salt, this explains why over the years people always said why add a 3lb salt bag to 99X if 99X already had high salt included.

And Shelton was confused that when he added the math it didn't add up to 100g like the Colonel told him it would, but 87g thus 13g short. And its true that towards the end of the story someone came to tell Shelton that the colonel said it needed a particular item that weighed 13g to get up to 100g. I always thought why would Shelton be confused? It would make more sense to me that he be confused if upon counting 11 items it weighed only 87g, than to count 10 weighing 87g, because then its plainly obvious it was missing something.

So whats going on with cloves?

What do you guys make of this story? Even the 1976 Food critics mentioned Clove. Do any of you guys genuinely taste or smell cloves in 99X, OR the corporate mix if you have any? I know for sure 99X doesn't contain Garlic, but did they also leave out clove, or is clove missing from the O.R.

Dustin

[Ken_Griffiths]

dProvo,

Your post above poses a rather difficult and complex issue, I'm not sure I should really comment openly here myself, as there are two fairly 'similar' recipes, that I am perhaps responsible for, one is a recipe that does not include Clove. The second is a recipe that does include Clove.

Both recipes have been adjusted very slightly in a number of other areas, so as to make each recipes fit within the confines of the 10 gram scaled down portion size.

It is a limit that is 'precise' when it comes to scaling The Colonel's original recipe, to ensure that things will fit all containers, including the known early 26oz seasoning bag, used both by the Colonel and the Corporation in the very early days. So my recipes are put together for use with 200g of flour, are (and always will be) restricted by the 10g ceiling.

But the overarching things that need to be considered are perhaps these:

1. Does The Colonel's original recipe have 11 herbs and spices plus MSG and Garlic Salt... and is one of the 11 vials associated, actually Clove, or is it something else that may look like vial C?

Or....

2. Does the Colonel's original recipe have only 10 herbs and spices plus MSG, but the Colonel mistakenly, but honestly, believed Garlic Salt was an 11th herb or spice.

I tend to side with option 1 above, from a personal point of view, but I cannot be 100% sure that vial C is actually clove, (it could be some other ingredient shown on the MK Order Form for example), albeit I think the Clove ingredient does add something 'extra' to the recipe, if it is included at an 'appropriate' level. It also matches the appearance of vial C.

In the case of recipe 119, that was 'constructed' with option 2 above in mind. (My thoughts at the time were that we should not rule anything out). The recipe does support the Winston Shelton story, but it also really contradicts the 11 herb/spice vials, unless we can actually show one vial (Vial C for example) is in fact Garlic-Salt.... I just struggle to think that we could actually ever prove that to be the case.

In very simplistic terms though, as an initial first compromise, we can say to everyone here at kfc11, just try recipe KG-127/2016, both with and without Clove and see what works best for them and see what proves to be the view of the majority.

Even then, will it really change your mind, or mine, about whether or not clove ought to be included. I'm not sure it's that easy to change a mindset.

It is a difficult and complex issue, like I said in my opening remark.

Ken

[dprovo]

I'm going to try it again!

Maybe something went wrong, I just know the ingredients we are using make chicken that is not only very delicious but, everything is screaming Original Recipe!

Dustin

[Ken_Griffiths]

Sept 25, 2016 7:19:36 GMT dprovo said:

I'm going to try it again!

Maybe something went wrong, I just know the ingredients we are using make chicken that is not only very delicious but, everything is screaming Original Recipe!

Dustin

No, Dustin please don't be persuaded by my views, stick to what you truly believe in.

These things have to be as 'honest and true' as possible to help us all find the real answer. Even if the evidence for Clove is quite compelling, that doesn't mean it is correct. I could be completely wrong. Vial C could be something else entirely.

It could simply be that the Clove needs to be lower (or maybe higher) to give it the correct 'fine-tuned' balance.

I certainly accept today's KFC is less tasty than our home-cooked recipes, but I'm not trying to replicate KFC. I'm trying to find the Colonel's Original Recipe and something that reminds me of the KFC of the 1970’s.

As I continue to research Thyme and Basil ... the 'eugenol' clove element keeps popping up in their description, particularly for Thyme grown on the Asian continent.

Some types of Basil too, talk about licorice (liquorice) and Clove in the taste. It's more mentioned as part of the 'taste-sense’ rather than the 'sense' of smell. I'm still researching these things and they are each complex herbs that have numerous varieties around the world. Oregano is also just as complex.

It is possible that the Colonel either:

1. Stumbled on a particular form of Basil or Thyme with a slight taste of eugenol and so he added a little Clove for 'effect', as it was not always present in some different brands of herbs that he purchased locally.

or...

2. That there is no Clove at all in the recipe and the eugenol taste that I remember, comes from the Basil and/or Thyme that was used back in the 1970’s, which has since lost some of its flavour intensity due to mass 'production/cultivation' methods, or a different type of 'less-eugenol-tasting' Basil or Thyme, in some areas, are being used to cope with the supply and demand.

I truly meant what I said earlier, when I referred to Clove in the O.R. as a difficult and complex issue.

I think it's important that we all try to be as truthful as we can here, as it eventually may help us all discover the real answer. I think the colonel encountered these exact same issues during his years at the Corbin cafe and it must have presented him with the same problem, but he eventually managed to solve it and produce the 'universal taste' as very aptly named his daughter Margaret.

[Ken_Griffiths]

Recipe KG-119/2016 versus KG-127/2016

Both recipes are shown below for ease of access on the forum and to view them both side-by-side.

Recipe KG-119/2016
MSG 3/4 tsp - 3g (Not in a Vial)
White Pepper (Sarawak) (ground) 1-1/4tsp - 3g (Vial G)
Black Peppercorns Tellicherry (ground) 1-1/4 tsp - 2.875g (Vial K)
Garlic Salt 1/4 tsp - 1.3g (Vial C - turned Black)
Sage (dried leaves) 1 tsp - 0.7g (Vial D)
Coriander Seed (ground) 3/8 tsp - 0.675g (Vial A)
Red Pepper/Chilli/Cayenne 1/4 tsp - 0.45g (Vial J)
Ginger Powder (Jamaican) 1/4 tsp - 0.45g (Vial F)
Basil (ground) 1/8 tsp - 0.175g (Vial E)
Thyme (ground) 1/8 tsp - 0.175g (Vial I)
Oregano (dried leaf) 1/8 tsp - 0.125g (Vial H)
Bay Leaf (crumbled)1/8 tsp - 0.075g (Vial B)

Recipe KG-127/2016
MSG 3/4 tsp - 3g (Not in a Vial)
White Pepper (Sarawak) (ground) 1-1/4tsp - 3g (Vial G)
Black Peppercorns Tellicherry (ground) 1-1/4 tsp - 2.875g (Vial K)
Garlic Salt 1/4 tsp - 1.3g (Not in a Vial)
Sage (rubbed leaves) 1 tsp - 0.7g (Vial D)
Coriander Seed (ground) 1/4 tsp - 0.45g (Vial A)
Red Pepper/Chilli/Cayenne 1/4 tsp - 0.45g (Vial J)
Ginger Powder (Jamaican) 1/4 tsp - 0.45g (Vial F)
Oregano (ground) 1/8 tsp - 0.225g (Vial H)
Basil (ground) 1/8 tsp - 0.175g (Vial E)
Thyme/Savory (ground) 1/8 tsp - 0.175g (Vial I)
Clove (ground) 1/16 tsp - 0.125g (Vial C)
Bay Leaf (crumbled) 1/8 tsp - 0.075g (Vial B)

Hope that helps some of the members here to compare the ingredients in both recipes.

Ken

[dprovo]

See image links:

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0SGIZ8BIGI0mER;B7198FEB-D994-4C7D-8B8C-238DC3A829AE

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0SGIZ8BIGI0mER;85394918-EC32-4482-8849-6959D6A2027C

[dprovo]

The picture linked above is recipe 127. I'm still going to try it again regardless!

Dustin

[ThePieMan]

"Chikin'! Goood!" - The Fifth Element.

[Deleted]

Has anyone noticed that the ingredient in Vial C has compressed together, as if it were sticky? It has separated from the sides of the vial, at the bottom, in a hardened mass.

[Ken_Griffiths]

Fred,

What do you think it might be? I did some comparison to Clove as shown in the unretouched photo here. I have not adjusted it's colour, contrast or brightness etc. (honest) and I thought it really did look like Clove.

See my (side-by-side) photo here:

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#A3Grq0zwGq3yag;75D113F3-954C-46E1-A257-62659C3293F9

I would love to know the content of Vial C. As dProvo once said though, whatever it is, it is most likely listed on the Marion Kay Order Form as shown here:

marionkay.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/2016-INDIVIDUAL-ORDER-FORM_020816.pdf

IMHO its certainly not Allspice, or Vanilla, but what else could it be?

Ken