IMP and GMP, Umami (MSG) boosters question

[silver]

Literature indicates that when MSG is blended at the ratio of 98% MSG, 1% IMP, and 1% GMP the flavor impacting effect of the MSG is boosted from 8-fold to 15-fold.

When targeting 26 grams to 400 grams of flour, MSG is often included in this at the level of 6 grams to 7 grams.  But if within the KFC 26 ounce herbs and spice bag there is flavor enhanced MSG at a level of 6 to 7 ounces, as opposed to standard MSG, would not this call for standard MSG to be added at 8-fold to 15-fold multiples of 6 to 7 grams?

[cascader]

Another interpretation would be that there was originally 6.5-7.5 oz of MSG (1 cup per 25 lbs flour.). At some point it may have been found by the corporate food scientists that adding the I&G boosters allowed them to use less spice, and more filler, or something less expensive, like salt.

I don’t think we actually know how much MSG is in any of the known bag sizes of 26oz, 32oz, 38oz, 40oz etc. What is known is the measured MSG in present day 99-x, per the mega thread. Another thread on this site explores the varying position of MSG in the labeling over time, which might be useful to keep in mind.

[Ken_Griffiths]

Actually, I’ve also been looking at the slightly higher MSG option too, around 7.5oz …and coupled it with the earlier suggestion that there was a 3:1 White/Black Pepper ratio and recently came up with this recipe (see link below), which I haven’t yet tried, or even put together at this stage, but I plan to try it at some point (same usual ingredients, of course🤷‍♂️):

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0SGIZ8BIGI0mER

[Ken_Griffiths]

The different laboratory testing of 99x undertaken by jwoz apparently claimed that it’s mix held an amount of MSG in the region of 7.75oz, but I guess that may include some natural MSG that apparently can occur in other ingredients, so that was my other reason for this tiny bit of side-research.

kfc11.proboards.com/post/11111/thread

[ne1]

I think the concept of MSG being between 7-8g based on jwoz's analysis is sound. The question really is the addition of those two ingredients IMP/GMP. Will just increasing MSG to a very high amount make up the difference? Or,are they doing something to the herbs and spices as well?

Ken - In one of my last attempts I had white pepper @ 6g. Now I know the kind, age, grind, cook temp etc. makes a difference but to me I felt it was just a tad too much. It had an pepper after taste heat wise I didn't get in store bought KFC. I am still interested in trying your 3:1 pepper recipe.

[Ken_Griffiths]

Aug 11, 2021 21:02:20 GMT ne1 said:

I think the concept of MSG being between 7-8g based on jwoz's analysis is sound. The question really is the addition of those two ingredients IMP/GMP. Will just increasing MSG to a very high amount make up the difference? Or,are they doing something to the herbs and spices as well?

Ken - In one of my last attempts I had white pepper @ 6g. Now I know the kind, age, grind, cook temp etc. makes a difference but to me I felt it was just a tad too much. It had an pepper after taste heat wise I didn't get in store bought KFC. I am still interested in trying your 3:1 pepper recipe.

I’m not sure about IMP/GMP as it’s not been part of my own research (at the moment, at least) but I guess all things are worth exploring.

With regards to the level of White Pepper - if not using it already, then perhaps try the type of White Pepper sold by Marion Kay, which is Indonesian Muntok, as it has a more subtle and ‘distinct’ peppery flavour than say Sarawak Pepper which can be strong and perhaps harsh in flavour - the two types of main Pepper (Tellicherry & Muntok) I think are perhaps a key part of the ‘answer’, especially as the White Pepper is thought to be the heaviest Spice in the mix.

[silver]

The real question I'm asking is that if KFC is using effectively supercharged MSG, and we are not, how can we ever expect to duplicate the note if we do not either also use supercharged MSG, or bump standard MSG grams up as much as 15 fold such that it is on more of a level playing field with supercharged MSG?

Here are a couple quotes about supercharged MSG, along with the web link to their source:

Umami synergy involves the relationship between umami-causing glutamate (MSG) and two additional molecules, the nucleotides inosinate (IMP) and guanylate (GMP). IMP and GMP do not cause umami on their own. But when present alongside glutamate, they are capable of amplifying the umami taste fifteen-fold. Not only is the umami taste magnified, it is more sustained and longer lasting, too.

Umami synergy is a sort of culinary gestalt: the whole is far greater than the sum of the parts. Glutamate produces umami. Nucleotides (GMP and IMP) by themselves produce no umami. Together, they produce an umami sensation that dwarfs the sensation caused by just glutamate.

www.ramenchemistry.com/blog/2015/2/18/umami-science-part-iii-umami-synergy

[Ken_Griffiths]

The issue here perhaps are that some members are maybe looking for the taste of today’s KFC whereas others, like myself, are looking to establish what the Colonel put in his 26 ounce seasoning bag - I’m thinking (at the moment, at least) he only used MSG, the 11 herbs and spices, Salt and garlic in his Flour mix, but please research away and try these ingredients yourselves. I’m thinking it’s not something the Colonel may have used back in the 1940/50’s (perhaps?) but certainly no harm is done by exploring these possibilities. I have a cupboard full of explored things here, some of which are now well out of date and ready to be thrown away.

[silver]

This linked source, as captured via the 'Wayback Machine', claims the MSG supercharging effect of adding IMP/GMP to be only 4-fold, as opposed to 15-fold.

www.chemicalland21.com/lifescience/foco/5'-RIBONUCLEOTIDES.htm

In Asia (if not worldwide?), AJi-No-Moto offer 'Aji-No-Moto-Plus'. The "Plus" is the addition of 1% each of IMP and GMP to 98% MSG. They claim it should be added at half the amount of pure MSG, so that would make the enhancement impact only 2-fold.

www.npkmasterplan.com/14816521/ajinomoto-plus

[silver]

For some reason my first link above does not work via directly clicking on it, but if the entire link is copied and pasted into a web browser it then works.

[jwoz]

So, I normally use MSG and also use I+G. I also brine my chicken with MSG.

The MSG test results with respect to 99-X should be quite accurate. The way it was tested makes it essentially impossible to confound MSG with other elements. Of course, there could be a minor discrepancy along the lines of 0.25 grams either way, but it's hard to imagine that the "real" value is 5 grams or 8.5 grams, for example. I think that 7.5g or 7.75g of MSG are good numbers.

I think that MSG is very important to the OR but I don't think that it provides the "note." However, if you cook chicken using a recipe on here without MSG, it's taste will be much farther away from KFC OR than the same recipe cooked with MSG.

I've seen all those articles about the "amplification" effect of various compounds (I+G) when used with MSG. I've always found those curious, because I don't know how one can quantify a "three-fold increase" in MSG flavor. Seems that would be done via a taste test, and that's highly subjective. But there is no doubt that these substances do, when used correctly, amplify the MSG flavor to some extent.

If you look back at some very early recipes, such as Swamprocker and Eula Gordon, you will see that they used a massive amount of MSG - on the order of 18 teaspoons in 4 cups of flour which at one point I weighed out as being roughly equivalent to 60 grams of MSG in 400 grams of flour. At that point, much of their sodium was coming from MSG, not salt. Per my taste tests that are done next to current KFC, I really don't think you can "overdo" the MSG. So I use I+G to amplify the MSG in my recipes vs. using an "out of range" amount of MSG itself. It makes sense to me that a company like KFC might do the same. It would be much cheaper to replace a lot of MSG with a miniscule amount of I+G. But, again, the MSG flavor is distinct and distinguishable from the "note."

[silver]

Would it be insane for me to attempt 12 grams of MSG (standard, not enhanced) in 200 grams of flour? I'm not concerned about violating the prevailing 26 grams into 400 grams guideline by doing this.

[jwoz]

Not insane at all. You could use more actually. Taste is the best guide IMO.

[silver]

Aug 12, 2021 15:33:30 GMT jwoz said:

.... I use I+G to amplify the MSG in my recipes vs. using an "out of range" amount of MSG itself. It makes sense to me that a company like KFC might do the same. It would be much cheaper to replace a lot of MSG with a miniscule amount of I+G. But, again, the MSG flavor is distinct and distinguishable from the "note."

Are you using Aji-No-Moto-Plus, or are you separately adding I+G to ordinary MSG?

[jwoz]

I alternate between the two. Aji-No-Moto Plus isn't directly available to me in the U.S. (as far as I've been able to tell). I've had to order it from Thailand, so it is a little precious. In some recipes I use it, and in others I use I+G in addition to "regular" MSG. The "regular" MSG I use is most often from Aji-No-Moto but sometimes is the Accent brand (I haven't been able to tell any difference, taste wise, between those two as long as I adjust the particle size (I grind my Aji-No-Moto to make the particle size finer)).

To elaborate on something I said earlier, even though I think that the amount of MSG in 99-X is around 7.75 grams (possibly 7.5 grams, since we can't demand absolute accuracy), from a taste standpoint I also get more of an MSG flavor from modern KFC OR than I get when using only 7.5g of "regular" MSG. I have a few thoughts about this.

First, I've done a large number of experiments with brine - using all sorts of things in all sorts of ratios - and at the end of working up very elaborate brines I came to the conclusion that the most important element in the brine is MSG. I think that a decent amount of the MSG flavor in the modern OR may come from the chicken being brined/injected with a solution containing MSG.

Second, I have no idea if 99-X contains I+G or not. It may, or it may not. But from a taste perspective, unbrined chicken I cook with 99-X doesn't (to me) have the amount of MSG flavor that the modern OR does.

Third, some of this is subjective, but you can get modern OR and taste it. You can get some pure MSG, put some of that on your tongue to lock that flavor into your mind, and then taste the modern OR right after that and try to discern the level of MSG flavor you are getting. You can simultaneously taste your chicken next to the modern OR and try to gauge whether you are using too much or too little MSG relative to the modern OR. When I did this I believed that 7.5g wasn't enough MSG on its own, which is why I started using I+G back in the day.

Finally, given the thought that I+G amplifies MSG flavor, it would be a no-brainer to replace some MSG with I+G. I+G isn't expensive. So, say that a recipe contained 24g of MSG. Let's posit that I+G, in very small quantities, amplifies MSG by a factor of 3. You could reduce the total amount of MSG to 8 grams, add a tiny amount of I+G, and save 2/3 the cost of the MSG plus potentially reduce bag size, bag weight and shipping costs. If you wanted to keep the bag size and weight the same, you could replace some of the MSG with plain salt, which is a tiny fraction of the cost of MSG.

Not saying this happened, of course. I have no evidence that it did. But it would make some sense.