KGDP-182/2016, F-14, KFC/G11 and TCK34D Cookoff

[ThePieMan]

I've got a lot of herbs and spices on my play list,

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#B0SGIZ8BIGI0mER;6562DEE3-B57E-4C37-800B-19AB464E8B0D

Which I've collected over the past 4-6 years. At current supermarket prices they weigh in at somewhere over €100+ replacement value. Since I'm moving home these are gunna hit the garbage can unless I use them up, and what better way to use them all up than by doing some recipe evaluations?

So for the first test, I decided to compare three of the most recent recipes I could find here with the TCK34D, which I'll admit has been a bit of a favourite for some time but, did it earn that place honestly and worthily? Or, did I just get lazy?

Let me make this note, there are some other recipes that I definitely wish to trial as posted in the thread, A personal recipe… 
If there are any other recipes you want me to trial or I should be aware of, please list them here. 

As this post has quite a few photos and sections, I will be grouping each aspect as a Response under this heading. So that it is easier to read and follow, please post comments after the, 


---Fin---

Response, Thanks in advance. 

[ThePieMan]

Synopsis

Four KFC O.R. Replicator Recipes were trialled sub by side to compare taste, sensation, flavour and aroma.
There were:

• TCK34D from the TCK Forum;
• KGDP-182/2016 from KFC11 Forum, Creator Ken_Griffiths;
• f-14 from KFC11 Forum Member, smallgree; and,
• KFC/G11 from KFC11 Forum Member, jerrysmith.
  

As I am not old enough have actually eaten 1950's O.R. Chicken.


This review is confined to exploring the noticeable distinctions and similarities between these recipes and draws no conclusion as to which recipe most closely matches O.R. Chicken as CHS might have once made it.

   

[ThePieMan]

Methods

• Chicken: approx. 50g portions of skinless chicken breast.
  
• Wash/Dip: 1/2 cup 0.3% Fat skim milk + white from a 55g egg + 1 tsp dextrose
  
• Oil: Hydrogenated Vegetable Oil (Palm Oil, Coconut Oil, Sunflower Oil, Air)
  
• Flour: 75% Type 405 Plain Flour + 25% Tapioca Starch
  
• Salt:  free flowing, iodised, white table salt
• Digital Scale: 500g x 0.01g
  
• All herbs, spices, and salt was passed through a 30/0.0075" Mesh Sieve
  
• All herbs and spices were ground into a fine powder using a Moulinex Spice
  
• 50g of flour blend per Spice Mix
• All ingredients were at room temperature prior to processing or use

Each recipe was scaled down to 1/4 of original measurements. Each Seasoning mix, inclusive of MSG and excluding salt, was weighed, ground and passed through a sieve. The salt for each recipe was passed through the sieve and added directly to the flour. Each salted flour mix was bagged and labeled. After passing through the sieve each seasoning mix was then added directly to the flour in the corresponding bag and sealed. The flours were left to meld for two days prior to use.


(I tell you what, mixing all these herbs and spice really gets up my nose   )


A piece of skinless, chicken breast, weighing approx. 50g was placed into each bag of seasoned flour, tossed in the flour, and left for 5 min. in the flour before being dipped into the milk/egg wash and placed back into the bag of flour where it was then tossed and pressed to coat the chicken. After this the pieces were cooked individually and sequentially in the same oil at 140°C for 5 minutes. After which the cooked chicken was removed and placed onto paper towel.

[ThePieMan]

Discussion

Recipe 1. KFC/G11 – A modification of the Leddington Recipe.


Ingredients:
Coriander Seed, Thyme, Basil, Oregano, Celery Salt, Black Pepper, Mustard Powder, Paprika (Sharp) Garlic Salt, Ginger, White Pepper, Salt, MSG*

*There's an awful lot of MSG in this recipe, almost 1/2 of the spice mix.

Observations: 

• Aroma of the Seasoned Flour: white pepper, with garlic, thyme, and a hint of basil.
• Taste: Peppery
• Sensation: Mouthwatering
• Flavour: Overall the seasoning blends nicely with the flavour of the chicken and doesn't dominate the chicken

Closeup of seasoned flour.


The cooked Chook.

[ThePieMan]

Recipe 2. F-14


Ingredients: MSG, White Pepper, Lemon Pepper, Ginger, Sage, Basil, Bay Leaf, Thyme, Coriander*, Allspice, Nutmeg, Cardamom, Garlic, Cayenne.

* whilst not specified, ground coriander seed was chosen over coriander leaf as the seed had a less herbal and more citrus character, and is specified in all other recipes.

• Aroma of the Seasoned Flour: Ginger, Lemon, Sage, and a hint of Thyme.
• Taste: slightly Bready
• Sensation: Peppery, Spicy
• Flavour: Overall, the flavour combines well with Chicken and doesn't dominate 
  

Closeup of Seasoned Flour


The cooked Chook.

[ThePieMan]

Recipe 3. KGDP-182/2016


Ingredients: MSG, White Pepper, Black Pepper, Garlic Salt, Sage, Coriander Seed, Ginger, Cayenne Pepper*, Oregano, Rosemary, Basil, Savory, Bay Leaf

* Alternative, Red Chilli Pepper

• Aroma of Seasoned Flour: Pepper, Garlic, Sage, a hint of Ginger and Savory, and perhaps coriander
• Taste: rather Bready, more Herbal than Spicy; perhaps Coriander and Bay in the aftertaste
• Sensation: Peppery, Spicy, Meaty
• Flavour: overall goes well with chicken doesn't dominate, but does have a noticeably curious finish.

Closeup of Seasoned Flour


The cooked Chook.

[ThePieMan]

Recipe 4. TCK34D – From the old TCK Forum


Ingredients: White Pepper, Black Pepper, Sage, Coriander, Ginger, Ancho Chile Pepper, Vanilla Bean, Bay Leaf, Savory, Cloves, Cardamom

(No closeup of the Seasoned Flour - Strange!!!)

• Aroma of the Seasoned Flour: Clove, Sage, Coriander, and a hint of Bay Leaf
• Taste: Indeterminate, Bready, Herby, Peppery
• Sensation: Spicy, Peppery, Lingering, Sweet-ish??
• Flavour: Overall a good combination with chicken which doesn't dominate.

The cooked Chook.

Not quite sure what happened here, perhaps the oil was hotter than I expected or it cooked inadvertently longer? Its darker...

[ThePieMan]

Herb and Spice Seasonings


A comparison of the colour of each spice and herb mixture prior to adding to the flours.
Observations: Note the different recipe volumes - I found this quite intriguing.


A top down view of the seasoning blends.

[ThePieMan]

Conclusions

I cannot speak for which one of these recipes most closely matches Kentucky Fried Chicken Original Recipe, however each did have their own distinct character. This was born out in the aroma of the seasoned flour as well as the taste and flavour of the finished, cooked chicken.

It is extremely interesting to compare several recipes side by side. However, mixing all this spice mix up definitely overloads one's olfactory senses, thus it is highly recommended to get someone else to blend the recipes and cook them and not the taste tester. Also it is better to leave the seasoned flours to meld for a couple of days or so, (or at least the spice blends) so that the herbs and spices can get to know each other better.

A final point is, that having sufficient breading is of paramount importance when comparing recipes. Too little breading, or too thin, and it either washes of in the oil or everything taste-worthy gets burnt away.

From this comparison, it is now clear to me that I have been getting lazy. TCK34D can no longer stand in as my "Goto," or "Default," recipe for homemade KFC.

I was never in this for the O.R. recipe, per se, as I have little of value to contribute on that specific goal. However, the process and experimentation interests me enormously. Through it, I hope to discover my own goto-default fried chicken recipe, and wish all the rest of you the very best of luck in your own personal quests. I hope you do in the end crack that recipe to your own personal satisfaction. 

---Fin---

[Ken_Griffiths]

ThePieMan,

Wow! What a lot of 'remarkable' work, in the short time you have been a member of this forum. I take my hat off and bow to you Sir, as you are clearly extremely dedicated to finding a recipe that suits your personal taste. I sincerely hope one day you find the real answer that you are looking for. Your effort, deserves that reward, at the very least.

I too, was surprised by the incredible differences in the volume (and presumably the weight) of the different spice mixes. My thoughts are that those with greater volumes, would really need to be used with more flour, to ensure they would scale to the known corporate containers. For example if we take these 'old' but 'common' KFC Corp bags, that were used in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s:

26oz KFC Seasoning Bag
12oz Egg/Milk Powder
3lb (48oz) Salt Bag
25lb (400oz) Flour Bag

These bags were opened and combined together by the cook, in every KFC outlet breading lug ..and were used to 'bread' 74 heads of chicken .. each chicken (head) being divided into 9 pieces... that's 666 pieces of chicken

If we very simply scale the recipe, by converting the weight of all ingredients from whole 'ounces' down to whole 'grams' we get the following...

26g KFC Seasoning Bag
12g Egg/Milk Powder
48g Salt Bag
400g Flour Bag

I personally then tend to cut this in half for my own recipes at home. Creating a precise mix of these exact weights/ratios:

13g Seasoning
6g Egg/Milk Powder (I usually use fresh egg and skimmed milk)
24g Salt (that's 4 US teaspoons exactly) but I prefer 2g less for my personal use
200g Flour

And of course the above, can be halved, or even quartered, for home testing purposes and to simply cut costs.

So when I see the weight of some recipes online, such as those that were put in the press by Joe Ledington, I struggle to see how the corporation would ever have fitted such a heavy recipe into their seasoning bag.

Some people say that the Corporation may have used oleoresins (starch, covered (and filled) with herb/spice oil concentrations), but even so. I still think some recipes would still be unlikely to fit into the known corporate packaging. You have to remember too, that in the late 1970’s and early 1980's that many franchisees were complaining about the lack of flavour and we're 'zinging' their recipes with 6oz of extra KFC seasoning (as mentioned in the KFC Manuals posted on this forum by Tony) and some were adding 6oz of 99x Chicken Seasoning from Marion Kay.

So it appears either the oleoresins were not working, or more likely the corporation were watering things down with additional Salt/Pepper, or possibly inferior tasting herbs and spices.

I do know the Corporation tried both a 32oz and 40oz Seasoning bag in the late 1980’s onwards, but in Australia and U.K. in 2013/14 they were back to using a 26oz seasoning bag once again as shown here:


Click to enlarge image.

Here too, is an extract from the the John Ed Pearce biography, that shows that the Colonel and Claudia shipped out a 26oz Seasoning Bag at some stage in the very early days, before the Colonel had sold his recipe on to John Brown & Jack Massey:


Click to enlarge image.

Anyhow I have maybe moved slightly off track, but the weight and volumes of any recipe, surely must be as important as the ingredients it contains? It's a pity that the news reporters, who covered the Joe Ledington recipe, never thought to research that aspect of it, nor the allergens, or the fact that one of the eleven herbs and spices was in fact plain salt, which, by the way, has now been admirably explained away by jerrysmith, as the way some cooks in those days chose to hide their one 'secret' ingredient.

Anyhow ThePieMan, a great side-by-side comparison cook off, which I applaud. I hope the different tastes and flavours of each one eventually inspires you to find and create a recipe that you will hopefully post here on the kfc11 forum, at some point in the future. I can assure you, that I will be one of the first people to try it as a big thankyou for all your hard work here.

It's a shame you plan to throw out your entire 'large' spice cupboard before you move, but sometimes it's also not a bad thing to start from afresh. All the very best with your move and I hope your new home brings you and the family lots of luck, future happiness and good fortune.

Kind Regards...

Ken

[jerrysmith]

ThePieMan,
Phenomenal work in the field! Your dedication to the cause is truly admirable.

I love your tip about letting the spice mix meld for a few days. i think that is great and plan to try it out next batch.

I also want to try your SPICE / WASH / SPICE protocol versus my WASH / SPICE / WASH / SPICE.
The spice mix and my fingers start to get "gummed up" pretty quickly with 2x wash!

Some questions: I see Dextrose in the Egg Wash/Dip. What do you feel that it adds (as I have never used it before)?

Also, I always use chicken with the skin on, as eating the skin was always one of my favorite KFC experiences. Do you think skinless chicken is missing a certain "fatty/greasy" flavor? Or is it just as enjoyable? And does it retain a good thick coating?

Finally, did you do any taste testing of the spice mixes on their own (before adding the flour)? I would be curious to hear how they tasted at that point.

Thank you again for all your hard work!!!!

JS

[ThePieMan]

Thanks Ken,
much appreciated. Herbs and spices do have a shelf life, even when whole, however, the whole seeds that I have I'll be keeping. Once ground though, flavour is lost rather quickly and it makes no sense to carry aged herbs to one of the great spice centers of the world So, I'll try to use up what I have as best as I can, make up some mixes and give them away to family etc. The dregs will hit the bin tho'.

Thanks Jerry,
Boneless breast meat was chosen because its the most neutral part of the chicken and I wanted to evaluate the different spice mixes as much as possible on their own. I normally find 'chicken' breast meat rather uninteresting and was surprised by how much flavour it contributed to the overall taste when properly masticated, yes I chewed quite thoroughly trying to chase the spice mix flavours.

Normally, I'd go skin on, lots of chook, and gulp that stuff down, but that wouldn't suffice for this experiment where nuances needed to be explored thoroughly. I must say that on cooking, I truly expected more of an aromatic and flavour punch from all of these recipes. The difference between cooked and raw spice mix is quite substantial.

Since I had an absolute nose full of the raw ground spices, I did not taste the raw spices directly, however I think that would be quite unproductive and overpowering for the reasons stated above. I still have some remaining seasoned flour (in the freezer) from each recipe and could do a taste test of that.

As for the dextrose. Yeah, good question. There is a debate/argument that, at least at present, dextrose or maltodextrin is added to the breading flour mix used by KFC Corp. Wether CHS used such or not? No Idea, hence the debate. Some have claimed this could be the basis of the "sweet" note in the O.R. Thus, I took skim milk powder and tasted it with sequential additions of dextrose until there was a clear but not over dominating sense of sweetness. Reminds me of the sweet milk that's popular in China. In end effect I didn't notice any residual sweetness in the finished chicken. Perhaps this is an area for further research?

The Dip regime: I confess I have had lots of trouble getting good coating of breading on my chicken regardless of whether I pressure fry, deep fry or pan fry. Often much of the coating just washes of in the oil If found similar issues with double wash and dip methods, as you say, gummy fingers, but no gummy chook Hence, I figured by leaving the raw meat in the flour, a paste would first form on the chicken, followed by a quick dip and then into the flour again with a short wait time in the flour, again to set the flour and the chicken. I then took the floured chicken direct from the flour and placed it into the oil. Even with this I still had some separation of breading from the chicken, pocket formation rather than flaking and falling off.

Hope that helps.

[Deleted]

I use pastry flour. Crack one egg; save the yolk for ice cream; Whip the egg white into a bowl. In separate bowl, mix 1/3 cup dried skip milk with 1/2 TBS corn starch. Add 1 cup tap water to the dried mix and stir vigorously. Slowly whip this liquid into the egg white. Dip 1 1/2 lbs. of chicken into this for 15 to 30 mins. Get oil ready. Mix chicken into your seasoned flour, and turn quite a few turns. Pat/squeeze the flour into the chicken, and remove to a rack. Let sit for 15 mins. Fry according to your system. My breading sticks, unless I brine it too long (having a senior moment, or moments).

[ThePieMan]

Hey Fred, yeah cake flour would be better, but I can't get it where I am, hence the mixture. I like the idea of adding a bit of flour to the egg wash. A useful point, also the bit about brining too long. bjw (your recipe is on my playlist) as for hints of KFC? I mentioned before that I can't answer that question as the O.R. that many are seeking was way before my time, and birth.