The Vials Photograph 1985

[Ken_Griffiths]

Here is the vials photograph showing the famous 11 herbs and spices:

www.icloud.com/photostream/#A3Grq0zwGq3yag;60667658-BC06-4E1F-A6F6-597987BE51C6

They have been identified (by some) as:

Vial A - Coriander Seed
Vial B - Bay-Leaf
Vial C - Vanilla Bean Powder
Vial D - Sage
Vial E - Clove
Vial F - Ginger
Vial G - White Pepper
Vial H - Cardamom Seeds
Vial I - Savory
Vial J - Red Pepper
Vial K - Black Tellicherry Pepper

Unless of course, you know otherwise! ... What do you think the ingredients might be?

Ken

[aileron]

Who identified these?

[Ken_Griffiths]

Aug 21, 2016 23:37:45 GMT aileron said:

Who identified these?

A good question aileron. The were identified by members of the TCK forum, way before my time - obviously it is disputed by many, but it provides a good start to debate, I think.

[Ken_Griffiths]

aileron,

I personally think that the 11 glass vials are completely genuine, but I slightly disagree with the identity of each ingredient as shown in the opening post above.

Here is what I believe are possibly the 11 vegetable 'herbs and spices' at this moment in time... Note, I use the term 'vegetable' in my comment. That term used to be stated on the ingredient labels of the old corporate seasoning bags as shown here:

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#A3Grq0zwGq3yag;0F0D18B1-7422-4EFA-B292-2308C4E9748D

Here is what I think they are:

Vial A - Coriander Seed
Vial B - Basil
Vial C - Garlic Salt (**this has turned black in a vacuum - see explanation below)
Vial D - Sage
Vial E - Clove
Vial F - Ginger
Vial G - White Sarawak Pepper
Vial H - Cardamom Seeds
Vial I - Thyme
Vial J - Red Pepper
Vial K - Black Tellicherry Pepper

**Note, Garlic will turn black if it is held in a vacuum and stored at a constant warm temperature, between 122-140°F, for a period of time.

Here are some useful links connected to Black Garlic:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_garlic_(food)

garlicshaker.com/garlic-recipes/how-to-make-black-garlic

In the case of Vial C, I am of the belief the creators of the glass vials, initially put white Garlic Powder or Garlic Salt into the vial to represent Garlic Salt. (The corporation lists both 'Plain Salt' and 'Garlic Powder' on today's corporate seasoning bags) Due to the simple fact the vial is sealed and is a vacuum and the humidity inside the vial, the contents turned black in colour. They have obviously been kept somewhere warm ... Even hot light bulbs or an enclosed 'safe' in a warm environment can be warm enough to change the colour from white to black over time.

It was some years after the glass vials were created, that the corporation decided to show them to the public. The fact the Garlic Salt had turned black in colour was perhaps some reassurance, that it was completely unlikely the public would be able to identify the content of all the 11 vials. The publicity was obviously worth the risk, or so they thought.

The above by the way is just my humble opinion. I have published a recipe (KG-113/2016) recently on the kfc11 forum to represent the vial ingredients I have stated above, which also scales perfectly to both the early corporate seasoning bag and The Colonel's 100lb Barrel.

See the recipe here: kfc11.proboards.com/post/170

I know some people may go on to argue that Garlic Salt is neither a herb nor a spice and also that Black and White Pepper could be classed as being the same ingredient, but in a slightly different form... but, I think it's what The Colonel believed initially in 1940, that is the important thing. Not wishing to be disrespectful to him, I do not think he was the most educated person I have seen and it's quite possible he and his friends saw Garlic Salt as a spice ... One other important thing - Did you know that there can be some degree of misrepresentation in Trade Secret 'Marks' and 'Statements' to help protect the secret. In fact the law requires the company to demonstrate they are actually protecting their secret otherwise the company cannot 'hide behind' the Trade Secret laws. I think therefore the term 11 secret herbs and spices would be legally allowed anyway.

What I do not think would be allowed however, in any Trade Secret, would be to hide allergens in a recipe and not inform the consumer, as that would obviously be a danger to the public.

So I am quite sure (as sure as anyone can be), that Celery Seed/Celery Salt and Mustard for example, do not form part of The Colonel's original recipe, as those allergens are not 'contained' in today's corporate recipe, which they still claim is The Colonel's Secret Original Recipe Seasoning.

By the way, if you search the ingredients lists on both kfc.com and kfc.co.uk ... You will never find 'Garlic Powder' on any product that contains the term 'The Colonel's Secret Original Recipe Seasoning' ...the reason for that, is that ingredient (Garlic) is part of the original seasoning and so they don't list it twice in their ingredients list.

Yet we are certain that Garlic and Salt are in the recipe, as they are shown on the corporate seasoning bag, as can be seen here:

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#A3Grq0zwGq3yag;40BC767F-B52D-44E1-8B8C-C3DAA118026A

Here is a snapshot of the ingredient list for the original recipe chicken, showing the fact the corporation use the term "The Colonel's Secret Original Recipe Seasoning." but never mention Garlic along side it.

www.icloud.com/sharedalbum/#A3Grq0zwGq3yag;218FDE83-37B1-460A-8689-F79D3F2CE209

It proves Garlic Salt is an ingredient used by The Colonel... Ask yourself why else would they not mention it and also why else would there be any salt in the seasoning bag, which is mixed with a separate bag of salt anyway as part of the mixing process at the KFC stores/outlets.

I am therefore quite convinced that Vial C, which has caused so much controversial debate over the years. is quite simply ...Garlic Salt!

Ken Griffiths

[Ken_Griffiths]

Just one more point on the above post, I also think the early corporate owners of the original recipe used Garlic Powder and Plain Salt in the seasoning bag to replace the original Garlic Salt used by The Colonel, to not only save money, but it allowed the corporate owners to possibly later 'dilute' the recipe by reducing the amount of some of the more expensive spices and replace them by increasing the Salt (and possibly the Pepper) level, without increasing the amount of Garlic Powder. I think that's because Garlic can quickly over-power the entire recipe with its quite bitter taste, if used in higher quantities.

That may also explain why I believe there is no Garlic in Marion Kay's 99x seasoning, which was used to 'ZING' the diluted KFC corporate seasoning at many franchised and corporate outlets and some say that the 'Zinging' process was endorsed by both The Colonel and Bill Summers.

That all eventually led to the KFC vs. Marion Kay Court Case, after the Colonel's death, where a settlement was eventually reached by all the parties involved.

www.leagle.com/decision/19851780620FSupp1160_11598/KFC%20CORP.%20v.%20MARION-KAY%20CO.,%20INC.

Note, the link to the above site can take a while to load up, so you may have to wait a while.

[ThePieMan]

I like your explanation here, Ken. I've not seen that argument put before. However, may I ask, why would the vials be vacuum sealed? If they were going to go to the trouble of eep them for long term storage, wouldn't they have purged with nitrogen and then just caped the vials, perhaps waxing the seal?

btw: flipping through the image gallery linked above, I came across this, it certainly made me laugh, now I'll have to look through each of these 22 ingredients and establish for myself, which are the herbs an which are the spices. Funny stuff!

[Ken_Griffiths]

TT,

Yes, lots of stuff in the image library for all members of this forum to view anytime. I also have a mountain of personal searchable notes from the past few years. It's good to look back over my notes occasionally and read the things I had forgotten about... The little grey cells are not as good as they used to be.

[Deleted]

I have anguished over these 11 vials, as Lumpy did. I know it represents the recipe in the 80's after CHS died, and could be an alternate recipe. I have taken into consideration that these elements are over 30 years old, and are photographed, not in the open, but in sealed containers. But then again, they may be straight up. I've finalized my opinions as to what is contained withiin those vials. I do not maintain that these are the correct components of the OR, only that these are the ingredients in the vials. It is what it is.

A - CORIANDER
B - BASIL
C - MUSCOVADO SUGAR
D - MARJORAM
E - CAYENNE (aged and darkened)
F - Either ginger or mustard
G - Either ginger or mustard (I don't feel that white pepper clumps as seen in this photo)
H - ALLSPICE (mine looks like this)
I - SAGE
J - NUTMEG (this is what mine looks like)
k - BLACK PEPPER
(CHS could have combined both and counted as one)

This is not the recipe, as I have not included added elements. I'm not sure that these are even used today. KFC undoubtedly uses and has used powdered flavorings and extracts. This is the final analysis of my research. I have disclosed information which I could have secreted to gain profit for myself. I promised long ago that I would reveal the recipe if I found it. It is time for others to do some of the work. I use all of these elements and have been cooking some really good chicken. Only vials F and G must be decided.

[ThePieMan]

I love this topic, it is at the very heart of so much analysis and conjecture. I see nothing has changed.

I once asked did anyone bother to stick their herbs in a vial and compare it to the pics, also did anyone know if there was a standard mesh size for these herbs and spices?

Here are my vials, contrasted with, "The Picture." flic.kr/p/QQzp1L

Here is a second picture, different angle. flic.kr/p/QT389t

There are a few notable points:
1. The first two vials do not match at all. (A) Corriander Seed (Dahini) & (B) Bay Leaf. The probable cause of this is that I used fresh ground seeds and leaves. I will get some commercial samples and see how they compare.
2. (C) Vanilla (whole ground bean), (E) Clove, (F) ginger, (G) white pepper and (K) black pepper are all on the mark.
3. (H) Cardamom Seed is really wide of the mark, and (J) red chilli pepper is a bit squiff. I used d'Espelette as a substitute for Ancho as all my ancho is gone.
4. Lastly, (D) Sage and (I) Savory, are raising some questions. My sage was home grown, and the savory commercial.

Cardamon is interesting. I get a better match with (H) black cardamom pods. flic.kr/p/RW5GKe Also in this image, I substituted (E) Allspice (Piment) for (E) Clove. flic.kr/p/S81YPe. I don't think Allspice is at all a match.

Here highlights the problem with trying to match new herbs and spices to this image. Colour space. White Balance. Tint. Angle. Age of Contents. We can't know these for sure, its all just one big merry guess, however, it is quite uncanny that some of the most, 'in doubt ingredients' in the TCK34 list (given at the beginning of this thread) are so visually close to the present photograph, that there is no further doubt about them… well, for me.

On the topic of cardamom, black cardamom has a lemon-citrus scent, and an under note of smoke, and it is a good match for vial (H) - yet, is it an ingredient that CHS would have used? Is there historical precedent for its use in Southern Cuisine? Therein lies the rub.

If you can better match the greens   I'd like to see it! (…photographically, I mean.)

[ThePieMan]

Addendum:
Three types of Cardamom. flic.kr/p/RxCmsy
Comparison with vial H. flic.kr/p/S8dMZp

Whilst I still think black cardamom is the best match to vial H, one must keep in mind what spices were available at the time. At least from another thread that lists all the available Marion Kay Spices, seeds, and herbs, ground Cardamom Seed, without the shells/husks, would have to be, 'Suspect H.'

[Deleted]

VIALS:

A - Thyme/savory
B - Basil/rosemary
C - Allspice/clove
D - Bay leaf/rosemary
E - Nutmeg/allspice
F - Ginger
G - White pepper
H - Cardamom
I - Sage (rubbed)
J - Coriander
K - Lemon pepper


I have looked at hundreds of pictures, noticing not only the color, but also the texture. Which ones clump, crack or smear, and which ones don't. I also have taken into account the fading of the spices as they have aged. Clove is more red than allspice (both of which are red), so it can't be E if C is allspice. E is not red, C is. If C is clove, then allspice can't be E. I have seen dark nutmeg, when it is in powder form. E must be nutmeg, in powder form, and not the garden variety we get. I have looked long and hard at G. It is coarsely ground white pepper. It is not mustard or ginger, since both are quite yellow, some even orange. I have exact matches for A as thyme I tried to fit savory in here, but find no matches for savory (It is a brilliant green), due to the strings. It is slightly green, and does not have the texture of coriander. J has the exact appearance of many photos I have of coriander. Coriander does not grind well, and the vial shows remnants of the seeds. I've stated before that chili powder grinds easily, and even if you used the seeds, they would not show. K does not look like black pepper, it looks like lemon pepper. Lemon is a culinary must for many, many savory dishes. Sage is fibrous and clumps, just as shown in vial J. H was difficult to match. I found several cardamom matches. This was probably one of the first ones to be eliminated, or diminished (or included in an extract combination). F is ginger, period. Mustard is a much more brilliant yellow. D is either bay leaf or rosemary. I found more matches for bay leaf, but they both crack like this when stacked. B looks much like basil, It is oily and clumps, just as some photos show. I did find one photo of rosemary that could have clumped like this. I have a photo of nutmeg I took from the grocery store which exactly matches vial E. I will look for it.

[ThePieMan]

Feb 14, 2017 19:19:13 GMT @smallgree said:

>I have looked at hundreds of pictures… just as some photos show… one photo of … I have a photo of …
I too have looked at many, many photos online, not all of them suitable for posting here  ;-)

The problem I've found with such efforts relate to what I've mentioned before, side by side comparisons of photographs from different sources make it inherently difficult to accurately match a single product across two separate images taken by different photographers under differing lighting conditions, camera systems, film types (if film was used), color spaces depending on Mac or Wintel, Screen contrast ratios, screen calibration, etc. ad infinitum…

However, indulge me. Take a look at My photos, based on real world comparison: you know, actual, physical, comparison...

>K does not look like black pepper, it looks like lemon pepper. Lemon is a culinary must for many, many savory dishes.

I dunno what you have access to in your country but given my, 'Native English Speakers' grasp on English, I believe you're referring to the "Seasoning" known as Lemon Pepper…

In Germany, its a common enough ingredient flic.kr/p/QRUaHQ and contains: (Zutaten) pepper; a powder made from lemon juice and dextrose; rapeseed oil; & lemon oil for aroma. flic.kr/p/QRUbG3 and looks like this, flic.kr/p/S9mKk4

So, to quote one of your former posts, "No."

I applaude your efforts, enthusiasm and endeavours but with all due respect, I think you're standing too close to the spice rack and need to take a step back to see the big picture, for it hangs on years and years of research based solidly on exploring what was available to CHS at the time, pouring though almost all available online and offline written sources and heresies, as well as wrestling with such issues as raised above. Perhaps take a moment to actually peruse some of that research? I'm sure it will invaluably inform your pre-cooking chicken preparation process, and further recipe trials.

With respect,
The Taxidermist.

[ThePieMan]

Eleven Herbs and Spices plus three Additives.

flic.kr/p/S9mJ1v

Are they the original OR Spices and Herbs? – "…who cares! commercial, Commercial!" (Ruby Rodd)



TT

[Ken_Griffiths]

Feb 15, 2017 10:09:16 GMT ThePieMan said:

Eleven Herbs and Spices plus three Additives.

flic.kr/p/S9mJ1v

Are they the original OR Spices and Herbs? – "…who cares! commercial, Commercial!" (Ruby Rodd)



TT

ThePieMan,

I think vial B ... does not match your Bay-Leaf cultivar ... I would try Turkish, but I thought vial B looks very much like your Savory.

If so, the first two 'commemorative' vials would begin with the Colonels initials !

Coriander
Savory


Ken

[ThePieMan]

I tend to agree with you, Ken.

The purpose of me doing this experiment was to draw a line in the sand and say, "Well, from what's been said, this is what it looks like. Does it match the data that we have?" in order to inform my further research, rather than taking what's been done on face value, or enthusiastic promotion.

I have a lot of trouble with the vials photo as a source document, for much the same reasons as outlined in another forum, which doesn't bear repeating here.

This I will say though, I am surprised by how uncannily, half the suspect ingredients closely match the image. I am tempted to get an authorised reprint for further analysis - the blue cast in the image still bothers me. (I used to be a working photographer, so some of this correction stuff was my bread and butter.) I guess that's why it bothers me so much.

I never saw the outcome of forumu.co.uk's digitising of their authorised copy of the image, but I recall someone sharing around a "corrected" or "balanced" version of the image, although I forget where.

All this, said and done though:

• A bothers me
• B bothers me
• J bothers me

It might be age deterioration related, it may be that they are completely different herbs. I'm gonna have to go back over the old lists and grind everything up and see if I can find something close.

Btw, my method, if you wish to know:

I passed all herbs and spices through my finest kitchen sieve. The lees were then placed into a spice grinder (Moulinex) and blitzed until sufficient passed through the sieve. This was then bottled into vials, and capped. All spices and vials where photographed in natural light within 24hrs of their grinding. Hence all can be considered, "fresh" commercial herbs.

…

The only way I can think of prematurely aging herbs is to place them, open, into a dehydrator for a week while exposed to IR light, or artificial daylight, and see if I get any color deterioration. Or photograph them fresh then leave them on a sun facing window sill, equally for a week and then re-photographing them to see if there is any difference.

The last constraint informing my choice of herbs and spices, is the list of common herbs and spices that were available in CHS's time when he had his road-side Cafe. I think this is vitally important to keep in mind when selecting possible substitutes/candidates. Is it possible CHS was aware of and had access to more exotic, imported spices. Undoubtably, but he said we can find the eleven in every person's (or good cook's?) kitchen. So, IMO no case for particular exotic spices, or indeed for spice mixes can be made, unless there is historical evidence to back that claim up. Show me that evidence and I'll be happy to joyfully consider it.

This is the raison d'être that underpins my approach. But that's just me.