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Post by Ken_Griffiths on Feb 16, 2017 0:42:53 GMT
ThePieMan, I can see how much work and time you have put into your own research and I have read some of your other stuff too (The Bait Layer etc.) and browsed your domains. Your efforts to find the answer to the Colonels Secret Original Recipe are extremely commendable. The commemorative glass vials are one strand of research and I know many people who have investigated them, tried to replicate their appearance and guess their contents, without eventually achieving the precise taste and outcome that they were truly hoping for. I include myself as being one of those people. If you read this link en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_secret ...you will see that the 'holder' of a Trade Secret should do all they reasonably can to protect their secret and so some researchers (arguably) believe that displaying the correct main herbs and spices to the general public, really would go against that directive. Some people believe that the vials are just a 'collective representation' of 11 herbs and spices and that some are either not correct, or their appearance has been deliberately altered to mislead. I must admit, it does not seem overly sensible to risk the main prize of a multi-million dollar corporation by showing to their staff, franchisees, press and the general public, the weight of their main seasoning bag and then to display the actual correct 11 herbs and spices, which may then go some way in helping folk to identify each important ingredient and to eventually lead them to be able to calculate recipes that will scale and fit the known corporate containers It just seems quite a risk to take such a chance and maybe we should give the corporation a bit more credit and consider that they may have 'tampered' with the appearance of some of the vial contents before they were displayed to the worlds press. The Trade Secrecy laws, requirements and directives, seem to infer that could have been the case and so nowadays I tend to keep the vials in mind, but I don't think I would bet my house on them portraying all the actual correct 11 herbs and spices. I said in another forum post earlier, as a simple example, that it's quite plausible that vial C could in fact be ground black Basil seeds and put there to represent the green dried Basil Herb on the recipe. In someways it would be correct, but its black appearance would be extremely deceptive. I'm sure I could think of other such examples that could represent a variety of ingredients and still carry an element of truthfulness, without revealing their actual true identity. I think the saying that 'we should not put all our eggs in one basket' is something we should bear in mind when it comes to creating recipes based solely on the appearance of the 11 glass vials and I haven't even touched on things concerning 'age', 'light', 'heat', 'exposure' etc. Ken
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 16:51:02 GMT
Remember, I have KFC seasoning from 1998. Sure, things have changed, or have they? Are we limiting ourselves? Creating animosities? You are right Ken, this is no place for such. I have tasted the KFC seasoning for 18 years. There is a wang aftertaste I've not been able to identify until recently, beginning with F-14. Scoff at it if you (anyone) will, but the Vials contain the original elements used by the early Corporation. Other elements were added, all to duplicate a taste, not a shopping list. Yves has always been right, taste is the important test. There may be more routes to Eldorado than the one CHS, or KFC used. That is what I'm after.
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tony
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Post by tony on Feb 17, 2017 17:56:25 GMT
Some people believe that the vials are just a 'collective representation' of 11 herbs and spices and that some are either not correct, or their appearance has been deliberately altered to mislead. not "collective representation", but "commemorative representation". it's the original text (by AP) under the photos. the photos are from sep-2008 (when they moved to new vault) and "1985" is the year printed on the vials plate. it's the year when Pepsi-co aquired KFC. |
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Post by Ken_Griffiths on Feb 17, 2017 20:01:14 GMT
Thanks Tony, I have noted your comments ...and yours too Fred.
My thoughts though, are that the 'holder' of a Trade Secret should take all 'reasonable steps' to keep such a recipe protected and, if required by a Court, should be in a position to show that is the case.
Some may say that keeping the recipe in a guarded vault and only shared by a few 'need to know' people, is sufficient to satisfy the Trade Secrecy Directive in a Court of Law, however, I just find it a little bit concerning, that the corporation chose to display the main 11 herbs and spices to the Public and the Worlds Press and they also invited them to photograph the vials, in what was clearly a major publicity stunt.
Now, if that had been my decision and I was in charge of a major corporation and answerable to shareholders that needed to keep the recipe secure, I would at least have suggested that we change the appearance of some of the ingredients, just to be on the safe side, especially knowing that they were to be photographed. I'm guessing of course that their content could easily be altered, but it would not be a major issue to have another set of vials made for such publicity purposes.
I do also appreciate that such ingredients are difficult to identify by their appearance alone, but I'm sure I would not take the risk, especially when it may have been fairly easy to put something else in place to mislead the press/public and I could then still go on to easily satisfy a Court that I was taking all reasonable steps to protect the secret.
Some also may say that the 11 glass vials are not all the ingredients that are in the Colonels secret recipe and that there are some 'other elements' too, but even some of those elements were known at the time the vials were put on display to the general public. Not least, the Corbin museum had already made mention of MSG, Salt and Flour in the secret mix and some of the KFC franchisees (and employees) were surely aware of the Garlic Powder listed on the main seasoning bag, alongside the two Peppers.
We also have the situation that for well over a decade, numerous researchers have tried to colour-match the vials, with a variety of techniques, using photoshop and enlarged HQ photographs etc; and they all still appear to have failed to find the real recipe.
So my thoughts these days are, that we perhaps should not be too over reliant just on the appearance of the ingredients in the glass vials and approach the research of them with some caution, just in case.
Not wishing to be overly negative, I still do see the vials as a potential guide towards finding the answer, but I think it's important to also keep an open mind about them and to continue to look in other areas aswell, just in case they do hold some mis-direction.
Ken
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Post by Ken_Griffiths on Feb 18, 2017 10:42:52 GMT
Just to show I'm not entirely negative about the commemorative vials, here is a photograph of my spreadsheet that shows what I thought the contents of each of the glass vials might be (in vial order). It includes their volumes and weights in different containers.  Click to enlarge image. Note the actual weight of Clove in the ASTA conversion table is 2.1g per teaspoon and the weight of Allspice is 1.9g per teaspoon... those precise weights can be used in the spreadsheet and they produce the same overall totals for each container. However I set both of them to 2g per teaspoon as they then scale to the Barrel at 1-1/4 lbs exactly... I think the Colonel would have made them fit in that way. Note there is no Bayleaf or Basil in this particular mix, as the 1/16 tsp of Clove and Allspice together, provide a sufficient amount of eugenol flavour in my opinion. Adding either Bayleaf or Basil seems to tip the level of eugenol over the top. I recommend using Jamaican Pimento for the allspice ingredient. All ingredients comply with the ASTA conversion table. There are a couple of things that can be adjusted in the recipe shown in the spreadsheet, for example, the Sage can be increased to 1 tsp and the Savory reduced by 1/8 tsp. In addition to that, it's also possible to then increase the Coriander by 1/8 tsp and reduce either the Chill/Red Pepper or the Ginger by 1/8 tsp. That at least shows there is some flexibility in the volume levels of some of the ingredients. Like I have explained earlier though, the ingredients have been chosen by what I see as their possible appearance and I do not have very much other supporting evidence for one or two of the ingredients chosen. The one thing I do like,(which I mentioned before on the forum), is that the first four vials could be a representation of the 'initials’ of both Colonel Sanders and Claudia Sanders, as demonstrated below: Coriander Savory Clove Sage Anyhow that was my best guess at the recipe using just the appearance of the vials. KenAdded Comment: For those researchers who think vial C is Vanilla Powder and vial E is Clove... i would guess it is possible to simply replace those vials in the spreadsheet with those ingredients and use the same corresponding weights shown in the table. The only thing is I have not been able to find a weight for Vanilla in either the ASTA conversion table or the USDA import/export database. |
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Post by ThePieMan on Feb 21, 2017 14:42:34 GMT
I got ya back on the vanilla, weighing what I've ground and average 1/4 teaspoon weighs 0.25g Although the weight varied considerably between 1/4 teaspoons, 4 x 1/4 teaspoons came in at 0.98g with the remaining finger coating of dust, stuck to the bowl, pushing it to 1.00g in total. Like I said, there was quite some variability in the 1/4 tsps which could be attributed to compaction, and operator error with the scoop and knife draw method. But, I'd go with 1g per teaspon of ground whole vanilla pod (v. Grand Crue Raiatea). On another related issue, I am increasingly less sure about vanilla beans altogether. As you know, a couple of days ago I ground up a number of spices and put them in bottles. I took the vanilla out to weigh it and noticed some crystalisation forming. Something that is not noticeable in the big picture. I cannot rule it out completely yet, because I cannot say for sure that the crystalisation might or might not disappear over a longer period of time. Food for thought.  There was also no chance for cross-contamination with either salt or sugar, this is how I found it. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2017 16:01:46 GMT
My recipe, F-16, comes from my take on the 11 Vials. Look at Yves's last recipe. It has most of the ingredients I believe are in the Vials. If, by taste, we all have determined some or most of the 11 secret Herb and Spices, then wouldn't all of our recipes look somewhat similar? Nobody can steal, If individual research leads us all to the same conclusion. Paranoia my friends.
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Post by Ken_Griffiths on Mar 9, 2017 16:46:29 GMT
ThePieMan,
The white crystals that formed in your Vanilla vial is probably not contamination, but is most likely the formation of vanillin, which naturally occurs.
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Post by Ken_Griffiths on Apr 18, 2020 21:29:21 GMT
If only someone had thought to label those 11 glass vials. Things would have been so much easier. 😂  Click to enlarge image This image shows my latest best-guess FWIW. |
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Post by dprovo on May 2, 2020 15:53:53 GMT
Ken,
When you mentioned above about the order of vials.
Coriander
Savory
Clove
Sage
It might also be why in 99X, they also put Coriander and Sage as the ingredients,
for Colonel Sanders.
On Claudia’s on tin can while he was still alive, it lists:
Pepper (white and black) MSG,Salt and natural herbs and spices.
To me it appears that 99X seasoning deliberately included CoSa, Colonel Sanders.
Dustin
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Post by Ken_Griffiths on May 2, 2020 17:03:23 GMT
Ken, When you mentioned above about the order of vials. Coriander Savory Clove Sage It might also be why in 99X, they also put Coriander and Sage as the ingredients, for Colonel Sanders. On Claudia’s on tin can while he was still alive, it lists: Pepper (white and black) MSG,Salt and natural herbs and spices. To me it appears that 99X seasoning deliberately included CoSa, Colonel Sanders. Dustin Yes it’s possibly true, but presumably the 99x container-label is in ingredient order too by weight, followed by alphabetical listing. I see Claudia's recipes appear to have a lower MSG weight compared to its Pepper, whether or not the Pepper level was increased, or the MSG was lowered, is perhaps anyone’s guess, but there were some public concerns around MSG (E621) that eventually led to FDA to investigate it and it was given the okay and is GRAS (generally recognised as safe) albeit I think some folk may be sensitive to it.. ? I have another couple of Claudia's recipe containers somewhere in my image library, which shows she also made an MSG-Free version of her seasoning and a Saltless version.. though presumably you still need to add salt to the latter? The early KFC seasoning bags seem to show MSG at the top of their labelling too.. but it’s true that I really do think the first four glass ‘commemorative’ vials, designed originally to mark Colonel Sanders 95th anniversary and unveiled at a private gathering in which Claudia Sanders attended, ..might (just might 🤔) have been arranged to represent, their names/initials. That’s why my current take on the ingredients in the vials are as follows....  Click to enlarge image The recent ‘CV lock-in Recipe 3’ recipe ( my personal favourite recipe) is based on all these things too. |
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Post by dprovo on May 2, 2020 21:36:55 GMT
Ken,
That is true it is listed by weight. Just a thought, since its not listed on Claudia's Tin can, yet we can see Sage in the mix. Why even add coriander and sage?
That Tin can I believe was 127g or 4.5oz, so its missing 3.5oz if you multiply that for 25lbs of flour.
Broken down its
1 tin of seasoning 4.5oz 127g to 5lbs flour and 1 cup of fine salt for fifteen lb ave chickens
or
1tbs of seasoning
1 cup of flour
1 tablespoon of fine salt for 2.5lb ave chicken
Notice the salt level wasn't altered, since this also equates to what Jack Massey indicated in his biography of using 5 cups of salt which is just shy over 3lbs. The MSG was decreased, and other items were reduced or eliminated to get at 22.5oz seasoning for 25lbs of flour.
The owner of said can said.
"I put a tiny bit on my finger and I definitely can tell it was kind of hot and spicy, it appears to me some kind of hot pepper."
"Wife said she can taste pepper or cumin, (she says it is hard to tell about the cumin part because of all the other blends that are mixed in."
"Something spicy (kind of hot) but not sure if it is from the pepper SMELL. She says it smells like chicken powder, and pepper."
Bobby from MK ALSO said.
"The chicken seasoning Plus is our Retail line of Chicken Seasoning 99-X with the salt added. The Chicken Seasoning is the 99-X with the salt and flour added. Normally, the 99-X is purchased through the restaurant line because most home-users do not need the amount of breading that the 99-X will make."
Dustin
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Post by Ken_Griffiths on May 2, 2020 21:57:37 GMT
Ken, That is true it is listed by weight. Just a thought, since its not listed on Claudia's Tin can, yet we can see Sage in the mix. Why even add coriander and sage? Dustin Ah I see, so 'CoSa' is possibly a tribute to the Colonel by MK .. 'YES', of course that makes sense why they would choose to highlight those two ingredients on their 99x label and leave the rest as 'other natural herbs and spices'. That’s a nice bit of thinking.👍 I’m just going back now to finish reading the rest of your post. |
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Post by Ken_Griffiths on May 2, 2020 22:37:07 GMT
dProvo, Yes, I have photos of some of Claudia’s containers and the mix suggested is 1 tbsp seasoning, I tbsp Salt, to 1 cup flour for one chicken. Have you seen this MK image before? I cannot confirm the date shown, but a lot of salt was suggested back in the early days, 25oz seasoning, to 64oz Salt, per 25lb flour... too salty for people’s taste these days ?🤔.  Click to enlarge image.
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Post by Ken_Griffiths on May 2, 2020 23:00:41 GMT
Just to also say that the MK image says there is ‘no more than 11% Salt’ in the 99x 25oz container.. 11% is exactly 2.75 ounces by the way. The Colonels seasoning however was also one ounce heavier than the 99x container, but I now think there was exactly 4oz of salt in his original 26oz seasoning bag? It’s all intriguing and slightly confusing too.🤔
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