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Post by kgp on Jun 3, 2019 12:34:31 GMT
To give you some history. When Mark from TCK came out with vanilla being 100% in the O.R. we all tried it even at great cost. The results divided the chicken community. People like myself, Brodie, Ellsworth etc. plus many tohers firmly disagreed. Mark then began a campaign calling anyone that did not agree with his findings "shills." He did not allow decent. Their posts would be ridiculed and even deleted. This started other chicken forums which spread quickly. Ellworth being Mark's 2nd person to join his forum was made fun of. He contributed much to Mark's forum but Mark changed his avatar and put a derogatory name in its place. Mark had other reasons to do this to Ellsworth. The vanilla craze was short lived but the damage it did was irreversible. Mark no longer had any credibility. I joined other sites that allows free thinking. Lumpy's Larder, BruceB and Ellsworth's many sites. KFCThe11Cracked as well KFCUSA was a welcome relief. People from TCK left and joined KFCThe11Cracked. Lumpy was the number 2 man. Kid Knievel from TCK joined KFCThe11Cracked under the name Jumbalaya so as not to get kicked out of TCK. He later did join with his real name. Even Mark from TCK joined under a false name. It was a wild time but we made many of the recipes you guys have today. Also, a lot of the herbs and spices were pioneered by us. The only thing Ken from this forum did differently was the weights. We used volume. We even had it down to how many tsp you must use to get any favor. So when someone posted a recipe we would know right away if it would have enough punch.
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Post by mpmn04 on Jun 3, 2019 12:51:56 GMT
kgp, great insight on the past. Sad to hear that so much dissent occurred over such a minor thing as vanilla. Ken is quite diligent to prevent things from derailing here. And he certainly brought science to the equation with the weighing of ingredients factor. His V-7 recipe is excellent, have you tried it yourself?
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Post by kgp on Jun 3, 2019 14:48:38 GMT
And he certainly brought science to the equation with the weighing of ingredients factor. His V-7 recipe is excellent, have you tried it yourself? Yes I have. Although I and my taste testers agree that it is not the O.R, it is another fine chicken recipe. All of us have made such recipes. I even have one that went commercial. In regards to weighing things I do that all the time with bread making which is a necessity but when it comes to the O.R. in such small quantities I don't think it helps that much. It might when a final recipe is found but we are not there yet. I have always stated "We will know when we taste it." An extra 1/8 tsp plus or minus of a herb or spice is not going to break any recipe. What the 11 herbs and spices are will. I find weighing the recipe for chicken to be interesting and I'm glad Ken brought that subject up big time. Ellsworth use to say "Leave no stone unturned." All of us have found chicken recipes that we like very much. I even use some when I want to have a great chicken dinner. More work needs to done of finding the correct 11. Back in the day I explored poultry seasonings head on. I found every old container making a graph of each herbs and spices being used. It was eye opener for sure. So much diversity. Poultry seasoning is a good place to start. Lumpy would say that CHS used Sexton Poultry Seasoning first and built from there. I agreed with him about that. Still do. Vanilla was not a small matter because it was told it was a 100%. That was the problem. After all those years spent together that is what it finally came down to. I have no problem with anyone putting vanilla in their chicken and enjoying it. But please don't tell me I have to agree with it being the Original Recipe of CHS. That will not fly. I will find my own way. Mark made it a mission to stop us. It failed. We all went on leaving him behind.
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Post by mpmn04 on Jun 3, 2019 15:22:34 GMT
kgp, thank you for your input its been great conversing with you. As a recommendation, which recipe is the closest in your opinion? I'll put it in the queue to try.
Mike
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Post by kgp on Jun 3, 2019 15:33:41 GMT
kgp, thank you for your input its been great conversing with you. As a recommendation, which recipe is the closest in your opinion? I'll put it in the queue to try. Mike Mike there was only one time I tasted the O.R.. It was a BruceB recipe that had mint. Crazy huh? Don't worry I never tasted the mint even though it was in there. However, I could never taste the O.R. every time I made it. So, I began to make small changes to capture the magic but to no avail. I had to give up on it. There is something about that recipe that has some of the correct 11 in it that made it stand out to me. Maybe it was the compounds. I will never know. I haven't made it in years since I have other deep fried chicken recipes that I love. They don't taste like the O.R. but I enjoy it.
For the record The Ledington recipe will make fine fried chicken but not in the Tablespoons posted in the newspapers and Internet.
Many of Mark's prevanilla recipes were tasty. One of the ones I liked had caraway seed. I told Mark it reminded me of Shake & Bake which he posted about that. My wife still asks for that recipe every now and then.
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Post by mpmn04 on Jun 3, 2019 18:55:49 GMT
Every recipe I've tried made good chicken for sure. imo, Kens v-7 and a few versions before that had "the note", particularly the next day. Its how I remember it here in Canada in the 60's and 70's but its not as strong as I recall. He's on the right track. But, as discussed earlier I think it was willy, could CHS have used extracts to give it that stronger flavor? Maybe.
There are so many chicken places around now. I'd love to have a Popeyes chicken around here, I've never had it, but its only in Toronto I think. There's none in Atlantic Canada yet. I'm working on a trip to New Orleans so I'll wait till then.
regards, Mike
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Post by kgp on Jun 3, 2019 19:20:10 GMT
could CHS have used extracts to give it that stronger flavor? Maybe. Stay with what we know CHS said "11 herbs & spices" "On all kitchen shelves." I'm convinced that CHS did not use extracts. Keep it simple. Even the vials that KFC displayed do not show extracts or claim to have extracts. CHS used 11 herbs and spices. The magic ingredient was MSG during that boat trip story. He used handfuls of it. Everyone loved his chicken from then on. The old timers that had KFC from the 1950's and 1960's said it had plenty of MSG. Any fried chicken recipe you make today if you add MSG will make it taste yummy. I'm glad you're enjoying Ken's recipe.
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Post by nitebeat on Jun 3, 2019 20:04:50 GMT
The take away for me with BruceB’s BB10-0131 is not vanilla, as many and better recipes have been created without using it, the stand out ingredient for me is fennel. Regarding that recipe I would use white pepper and would not use bay leaf or vanilla. Regarding vanilla in the td34 recipe, yes I thought it was correct...... wrongly, it for me produced an almost sickly taste, and although was claimed as a 100%er, it seemed To appear out of thin are and mark never explained the "proof", was all a bit vague.
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Post by kgp on Jun 3, 2019 22:01:52 GMT
The take away for me with BruceB’s BB10-0131 is not vanilla, as many and better recipes have been created without using it, the stand out ingredient for me is fennel. Regarding that recipe I would use white pepper and would not use bay leaf or vanilla. Regarding vanilla in the td34 recipe, yes I thought it was correct...... wrongly, it for me produced an almost sickly taste, and although was claimed as a 100%er, it seemed To appear out of thin are and mark never explained the "proof", was all a bit vague. Fennel is very popular in sausage recipes. Remember what CHS said about that? Based on my spreadsheet fennel was used by us in 24 chicken recipes. One of which is one of my beloved recipe. You can't go wrong with fennel. Nitebeat can you explain how you at first you believed in vanilla? What about it was so appealing? How long did it take you to reverse that decision? I love vanilla but not in chicken. I even make my own extract. Mark often created his proof from stories. You had to believe that first. He then would build upon that story creating even more stories. Until finally you were in left field and had no idea how you got there. When people would see the wrong path we were on they would start to question his first original story. Mark would then call you a shill or company plant only there to undermine all his hard work. You then got banned, ignored or in Ellsworth's case his account hijacked. It was a troubling thing to watch. It all worked out for the better in the long run. People had to be able to express their opinions. Sites like Bruceb's, KFCThe11Cracked, KFCUSA, Lumpy's Larder etc. allowed that. There was even a site called "The KFC Underground." I'm glad to know that Ken follows this model approach of free thinking.
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Post by nitebeat on Jun 3, 2019 23:01:33 GMT
I was a member of lumpy’s larder before Marks td34 in fact it was lumpy that released it to the world. Mark was away but told lumpy that he would be back and release the recipe at a certain time and date. Well this deadline had come and gone.... no TC (mark) so lumpy, being previously privy to the recipe ‘Released it on TC’s behalf". So firstly some very respectable researchers .... BruceB, Lumpy, TC (mark) and others all initially believed This was it, as did I ..... it was the nearest i’d tasted to my 70’s memory in New Zealand, I wanted to believe this was it.... certainly I was green as i’d Only been on this quest for under a year.
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Post by nitebeat on Jun 3, 2019 23:39:00 GMT
Thinking about how the mind, my mine at least (and in my observation others as well) regarding recognition of an old memory works. I’ve been trying to find a parable to explain, try this.....
Imagine as a young child you went for a holiday and the thing you remember was the beautiful view that you woke up to every morning. Years later you see an photo on a b&w tv ... this is it ... you exclaim, this is what I remember, some time later you see the photo again on a colour TV You realise this is what you remember, years passed and you saw the photo again this time on a HD flat screen TV.... this is better this is closer to that View I remember, a few years later you see the same photo on a 75" 4K curved oled display, how could I have been so wrong to believe that the picture I saw on the black n white Tv was what I saw as a child.
You get the point, each time you experience something that is close it triggers a " eureka this is it moment", it’s not until something even closer Better comes along you recognise it as the new standard, and wonder why you thought the old previous one was even n the ball park.
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Post by batelmagdie on Jun 4, 2019 1:19:12 GMT
iam in with nitebeat .
Fennel could be a one of the missing secret of the O.R.
The other ingredient is "SMOKE SALT" Or Chiptole pepper / smoked chili .
Herbs on the other side . I Think it only has the herbs that are in the Sexton poultry : Sage Thyme marjoram savory
I need to prepare a recipe soon .
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Post by ThePieMan on Jun 4, 2019 7:32:09 GMT
Fennel could be a one of the missing secret of the O.R. ... I Think it only has the herbs that are in the Sexton poultry : Sage Thyme marjoram savory Hmmm, so fennel is out? Or you do not consider it to be an herb? I'm having trouble with what you mean exactly... Vanilla? Argggghhhhh! I never saw any proof for it other than claims it was a dead ringer for the black stuff in some vial. I got "Tahitian Vanilla" and tried three sub-genus types of it, and gave it a really good open minded go. Nope! no way, nada, it did not fit. The rationale for Tahitian Vanilla did not fit on every one's kitchen shelves, CHS used and could afford to use the best ingredients? Not when he started, that's for certain. How old were those vials agin? Ground Vanilla releases its vanillin as white crystals with age, and there was never any visible crystallisation in the black vial. Ideas are like a virus, once you catch one it's hard to let it go. the idea of vanilla in the OR was just that, a mental virus that some people who sincerely wanted to believe, caught. I caught it, drop a load of cash on that one punt. Like most of my gambling efforts, I didn't win a G.D'n. thing. It was sad to see the fallout and recriminations that occurred when Mark bought the farm on vanilla, taking the rest of us along for the hay ride, then kicking people out because they complained about the straw sticking in their anal sphincters each time he hit a bump. Really sad and costly to the whole O.R. community. Cheers. TPM
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Post by nitebeat on Jun 4, 2019 8:07:42 GMT
It was sad to see the fallout and recriminations that occurred when Mark bought the farm on vanilla, taking the rest of us along for the hay ride, then kicking people out because they complained about the straw sticking in their anal sphincters each time he hit a bump. Really sad and costly to the whole O.R. community. And the only people that gained anything was KFC Corp, as our fractured research community, results stalled, and in the meantime time marched on ........ valued witnesses to early kfc, became disallusioned because of the crap and exited the research scene, or sadly passed on while we bickered our window of opportunity away. We can’t afford for that to happen again if we are to have any chance to find the kfc of old, late fifties, early sixties.
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Post by kgp on Jun 4, 2019 11:39:07 GMT
KFC Corp gained nothing. They don't care what we do. They made their billions. Even if we had the recipe they would sit quiet. Also, nothing stopped. We continued to make more and more recipes that did not have vanilla. We banded together making the best recipes that we have today and still use.
I was the first person that introduced "The Vials" that created the firestorm. Let me say this in regards to its contents and color. I never heard anyone say this but it might be possible that KFC periodically empties the containers and then fills them anew. It would be like a company cleaning their sign in the front of the store for image purposes. We don't need to think about how they would do this or who would do it only that it could be done. Therefore don't go by aged color. It will not help you.
I also coined the phrase "The Hubble." This was when Dprovo was using a microscope to look at a bag of KFC Corp. mix. At the time I didn't think it would produce anything. However, having such a mix you could make the chicken at home and do flavor comparisons. This would be more compelling evidence to see how close we were. Keep in mind that we all know the latest KFC Corp mix has changed from the 19050's and 1960's but it still had "The Note." Before it was released Mark secretly sent us a private message asking if he should post with pictures about what Dprovo had at his house. At the time I did not think it was a good idea since it was KFC Corp property. Others agreed but Mark did it anyhow. This began a slippery slope of how far some were willing to go.
Ellsworth contacted Forumup about the legality of such a bag of KFC Corp mix but was told it could not be proven. It began an unstable research since breaking the law to obtain a bag of the mix made a We (Researchers) and Them (KFC Corp.) mentality. People felt they could now freely slide down the slope.
Often you would hear derogatory statements from Mark about KFC Corp as if we were at war and they were doing things against us. This was all made up by Mark. It gave him permission to fight the enemy anyway he saw fit. I did not agree at all. It was all smoke & mirrors by Mark; illusions. I still maintain today that KFC Corp cares not for what you do. They have a business to run. You will never stop that. Most people don't have a pressure fryer at home and want a quick dinner from KFC. If anything the explosion about The Ledington Recipe would have done KFC in. It didn't. Long after you and I are gone KFC Corp will still be making their chicken. It happened to Lumpy. He was a great researcher.
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