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Post by Ken_Griffiths on Dec 15, 2019 2:58:33 GMT
Note the Court settlement mentioned earlier, does not say Cummings could not substitute ingredients, but it does say that he could not use more than 5 spices in addition to the Salt, Pepper and MSG.
So that 'perhaps' could be (just as an example) ...
MSG White/Black Pepper Sage Coriander Cayenne (and/or Jamaican Ginger) Marjoram Thyme Salt
I’m including herbs in the recipe, as I think the judge possibly meant both herbs and spices when he referred to them just as spices. (others may have an alternative view on that particular point)?
I’ve called the hot red pepper “cayenne”, in the above list, as it’s not clear if that would perhaps be classed as a Pepper, but if it is, then I have included Ginger in brackets as the alternative.
In my own personal tests, the above ingredients, without the Ginger, is a very good match to MK's 99x (taste, look and aroma) and if Jamaican Ginger is in 99x, then it’s not very high in terms of the overall recipe weight ratio.
So I still remain reasonably convinced that the things mentioned in the posts within this thread are close and in proximity to the Colonels original secret recipe, but like I mentioned earlier, there still could be some other 'elements' that are missing from the recipe and finding the precise spices, herbs and their exact quantities is quite a difficult task and one whereby the real answer may also never ever be confirmed. (Sadly☹️).
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Post by batelmagdie on Dec 15, 2019 3:05:08 GMT
The descending order is the most scaring and might be the most misleading part that should not taken blindly . Yes , i agree some brands [specially in the past] was listing ingredients in an volume/weight order . And there is a high possibility that sexton's did that [ in the good times where every single information was not a secret , that's why you can see some really good restaurants/chains vintage recipes]
But i believe now that is not the case , and it might be the same for some old brands . As far as i know , They are not restricted to list the ingredients in a weight order just as they are not even restricted to list all the ingredients "except allergies"
[Yes i am looking at you X99 ] Suddenly every serious recipe started using more white pepper than black pepper after marionkay X99 went under scope . Don't u think ? Because every tiny bit information i find regarding pre 64 seasoning mix . People swore Tellicherry was the main thing and white is a fraction . Some people said there even wasn't white pepper in O.R. until few years after colonel harland sold his O.R.
So just because X99 listed white before black [EVEN IF CURRENT KFC seasoning bag] has more white than black (which i don't know if anyone ever approved that + every statment i saw said that it smells like white& black pepper , but how can u tell which is more than the other? except from the listing order in marion kay x99 .
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Post by Ken_Griffiths on Dec 15, 2019 3:30:21 GMT
I will put this here for now, as this item (below), that sits on the Kitchen Shelf in the Corbin Museum, still has me wondering about it, as my wife Jane thinks she occasionally gets a slight malt-like flavour from today’s corporate Kentucky Fried Chicken. I can’t say I notice it in all honesty, but SWMBO said this without knowing about the below item on the museum shelf and I therefore find that quite interesting, as she tends to have a good instinct for these type of things when taste-testing. My thoughts though are, would the Colonel have used malt powder in his day and was it a part of baking and perhaps something he might have added to his flour? Click to enlarge image Whenever I think of malt,I just think of Horlicks and cups/mugs with no hole in the handle and remember it was hard to hold the cup when I was a young lad.😁 The other item on the Musem Kitchen shelf is the log cabin corn syrup, what’s that doing there? Are there any clues here that are perhaps still hiding in plain sight, I wonder?
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Post by kgp on Dec 15, 2019 11:34:47 GMT
The other item on the Musem Kitchen shelf is the log cabin corn syrup, what’s that doing there? Ken, CHS was running a eatery. They served all kinds of food. Fried chicken was just one of many. The museum represents all that he did not just chicken. Malted milk drinks was a big thing back in that day. In the 50's, 60's' and early 70's it was still on the shelves of American homes. People loved it so much that It took many decades for it to be phased out. Today I don't anyone that drinks malted milk drinks. You mentioned: "didn't think I was missing one? ...In no particular order: White Pepper Black Pepper Red Pepper (Hot) Sage Coriander Allspice Clove Marjoram (or Oregano) Savory Jamaican Ginger Thyme ... (or Rosemary)" Where did red pepper come from if we are keeping with the Sexton tin? If the tin is by weight then savory could weigh the same as thyme, marjoram and pepper. Let's assume they did. How could the tin represent that? It would just have to be listed on the tin. Nothing more. It's not in alphabetical order. When Lumpy posted 1/8 savory it could just have easily been 1/2 tsp. That would also follow for the pepper being 1/2 tsp. Marjoram and oregano are close cousins but thyme and rosemary are not. Did any of you find when using rosemary that it brings the recipe closer to KFC?
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Post by kgp on Dec 16, 2019 10:09:19 GMT
Around May 2016 Deep Taste made a recipe version 30.4 that contained all of the Sexton ingredients. He added nutmeg to that list. I think that was first person to do it.
Sage Coriander seeds Allspice Jamaican Ginger Thyme Marjoram Red pepper White Pepper Black Pepper Savory Nutmeg
I'm not sure why red pepper keeps coming up. I'm sure some would say it's under the microscope when viewing 99x. By having three peppers in the party what does it bring to the table aside from color? If removed and adding celery seed in its place would that not be better?
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Post by kgp on Dec 16, 2019 10:13:15 GMT
Has anyone else made a spreadsheet or a database that has all or most of the recipes? So that if you wanted to look up say celery seed you can see which recipes has it. Or if you look up 10 particular herbs or spices you can see all recipes that contain that.
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Post by jilliegirl on Dec 16, 2019 18:30:44 GMT
Sexton Poultry Seasoning Anyone who wants to cook my best ever O.R. recipe which I will post here soon needs to prepare a batch of this poultry seasoning in advance. It's a documented fact that Colonel Sanders used Sexton Poultry Seasoning when he first started tinkering with his now-famous fried chicken recipe. If he considered it to be one ingredient, it proves once again what a smart fellow he was. Sexton Poultry Seasoning 2 tsp Sage 3/4 tsp Coriander 1/2 tsp Allspice 1/2 tsp Ginger 1/2 tsp Thyme 1/2 tsp Marjoram 1/8 tsp Black Pepper 1/8 tsp Savory As you can see, the yield is 5 tsp so it'll be good for more than one use. I'll post my O.R. recipe soon. L Hi, all! I’m a newbie here and have fully enjoyed reading your posts. Growing up in the south, there are a few observations I thought I would make. First of all, I am by no means a chef, just a southern country cook taught by my beloved grandmother. As I read your posts, I believe Ken’s wife (Jane?) has the right idea - to keep it SIMPLE. You see, if it is true that the Sexton spices are in the KFC OG, then the only other 3 ingredients missing for KFC flavor southern fried chicken would be rosemary, garlic powder, and of course, salt. Again, I am no chef, and have not put the time nor the effort into finding the OG recipe as you all have, so I could be totally wrong, but ...... my Mamaw back in the day would have used 1/2 tsp EACH of the 8 ingredients listed above (there’s too much sage and not enough black pepper and savory spice in mounts above), and then she would have added 1/2 tsp rosemary, 1/2 tsp garlic POWDER, and 1 TBSP of salt to 2 cups of WHITE LILY flour. You can only find White Lily flour in the southern states, by the way, as it is a much finer flour than others. (That’s part of the reason/secret that southern homemade biscuits taste so good!) Of course, the chicken would have been dredged through an egg/milk mixture before being coated with the flour and seasonings. Only Crisco or lard in a cast iron pan (which is all I still fry with to this day) would have been used. I do realize that the KFC kitchen, being a commercial one, uses different pressure fry methods, but for the spice taste and true southern cooking, and equal amt of all spices (except for an increased amount of salt) would have been used in the original. Observation #2 - Again, I could be wrong here, but all this talk of white pepper may not be the answer - If you use equal amounts of black pepper and savory spice, you are gonna DEFINITELY gonna have a very peppery tasting seasoning! You might wanna keep in mind that since marjoram is in the ‘mint’ family, that may be why some of the recipes listed on this site and others thought adding ‘mint’ gave their recipes that special ‘something’, when in all actuality, the OG recipe has no mint in it, but rather, marjoram. I also am not sure about the used of coriander seeds - most likely dried cilantro (coriander in herb form), would have been used. Observation 3 - The ‘greyish’ KFC packaged seasoning mix - I am a colorist, and having an understanding of the color wheel, tints, tones, and color combinations - if you were to grind the above ingredients into a fine powder, you would get a greyish mixture. I am glad to be a part of the forum and have no criticisms, only ideas that could possibly help ya’ll get that perfect OG recipe. Let me know if anyone develops the aforementioned ingredients into a recipe, as well as your thoughts. I laid out some chicken to fry earlier today, so maybe I can tweak my own KFC version. Blessings. Jillie
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Post by jilliegirl on Dec 16, 2019 18:38:45 GMT
Oh! One more thing! The ‘malt’ flavor Ken mentioned in a previous post could possibly come from using powdered egg substitute for the ‘dredge’, since most egg powders contain potato starch and/or tapioca flour (i.e., Bob’s Red Mill egg replacement). Just a thought.
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Post by Ken_Griffiths on Dec 16, 2019 19:21:05 GMT
Oh! One more thing! The ‘malt’ flavor Ken mentioned in a previous post could possibly come from using powdered egg substitute for the ‘dredge’, since most egg powders contain potato starch and/or tapioca flour (i.e., Bob’s Red Mill egg replacement). Just a thought. Hi jilliegirl,A very warm welcome to the kfc11 forum. I hope the information on this site, past and present, assists you with your own ongoing (re)search into the Colonels secret original recipe chicken. I see from your first couple of posts already that you have a keen interest in finding the answer and very much look forward to seeing some of your ideas and suggestions. All the best..👍
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Post by kgp on Dec 16, 2019 21:07:07 GMT
You can only find White Lily flour in the southern states, by the way, as it is a much finer flour than others. You might wanna keep in mind that since marjoram is in the ‘mint’ family, that may be why some of the recipes listed on this site and others thought adding ‘mint’ gave their recipes that special ‘something’, when in all actuality, the OG recipe has no mint in it, but rather, marjoram. In the north we do have White Lily which I use for biscuits and chicken coating. You can find it at Wegmans supermarket. It can also be used as cake flour since it is low in gluten. Interesting you mentioned mint. The only time I ever tasted KFC was BruceB's recipe which had mint. Strangely I could never duplicate it so I gave up on that recipe. I agree with keeping it simple. CHS was not a magician. He was only a man that knew how to cook and bake food that people enjoyed. I believe that the Sexton tin ingredients along with a few extra will make KFC. Getting there proportions correct will need to be done. Perhaps we can all test a particular recipe and go from there.
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Post by jilliegirl on Dec 16, 2019 23:14:42 GMT
Kgp, so GOOD to know White Lily is available there! I just remembered from college days friends that said WL was not available up north. I’ve raised 5 boys since then, so I obviously don't get out much. HA! By the way, I fried chicken about 2 hours ago, using the sexton poultry seasoning ingredients plus rosemary, salt, and garlic powder. Regular egg/milk wash. Oil 375 in cast iron for the first 2 minutes, flip, 2 minutes,turn down to med low heat and cover for several minutes, uncover, turn heat back up and 2 minutes, then flip and 2 more minutes to get outside crispy. To get the ‘msg’ infused flavor, I learned long ago to add the salt to the clean OIL before heating it up. ..... I dunno if it was 1950’s OG KFC recipe, (wasn’t alive then), but I can tell you it was some of the tastiest and best chicken I’ve ever fried! Blessings to all. Jillie. 🙂
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Post by jilliegirl on Dec 16, 2019 23:23:05 GMT
Just thinking....if the colonel left his recipe for his daughter on the door frame, wouldn’t it seem easy to write: “Take 2 cups flour and add 1/2 tsp of each: (10 of the seasonings) and 1 TBSP salt”. Someone else will have to try the recipe, since, although I grew up eating KFC, nothing tastes like it used to, and I never got to actually try the original. I was correct, that once I mixed all the seasonings with the flour, it was a grey mixture. As far as the spices, I ONLY use organic/and or dried spices that have only one ingredient - the spice it’s supposed to be with NO additives. I do not and will not use McCormick spices in my cooking, as they constantly add ‘miscellaneous’, unneeded ingredients to their spices. Ironically, the cheapest dried spices (thesedays) have no other additive except thecspice itself. I suppose in the 50s there was yet to be ‘all the modified’ spices/foods we have now. Blessings. Jillie 🙂
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Post by jilliegirl on Dec 17, 2019 9:13:27 GMT
Just thinking....if the colonel left his recipe for his daughter on the door frame, wouldn’t it seem easy to write: “Take 2 cups flour and add 1/2 tsp of each: (10 of the seasonings) and 1 TBSP salt”. Someone else will have to try the recipe, since, although I grew up eating KFC, nothing tastes like it used to, and I never got to actually try the original. I was correct, that once I mixed all the seasonings with the flour, it was a grey mixture. As far as the spices, I ONLY use organic/and or dried spices that have only one ingredient - the spice it’s supposed to be with NO additives. I do not and will not use McCormick spices in my cooking, as they constantly add ‘miscellaneous’, unneeded ingredients to their spices. Ironically, the cheapest dried spices (thesedays) have no other additive except thecspice itself. I suppose in the 50s there was yet to be ‘all the modified’ spices/foods we have now. Blessings. Jillie 🙂
*************************************PLEASE READ Thanks for the welcome! Black pepper and savory should be added in equal amounts. (Savory spice has a very peppery flavor). By the way, upon considering the comment “confectioner’s salt”, that would be nothing more than white sugar. Please try my recipe and tell me what you think.1/2 tsp Sage 1/2 tsp Coriander (or cilantro) 1/2 tsp Allspice 1/2 tsp Ginger 1/2 tsp Thyme 1/2 tsp Marjoram 1/2 tsp Black Pepper 1/2 tsp Savory Spice 1/2 tsp Garlic Powder 1/2 tsp Rosemary 1 Tablespoon Salt Add one Tablespoon of white sugar and the above ingredients to 2 cups White Lily Flour (cake flour). Mix well. Coat chicken with an egg and milk wash. Dredge into flour mixture. Let chicken sit for about 15 minutes after dredging in flour mixture Dredge again in flour mixture (but not egg wash) right before frying. Fry in oil of choice, (Crisco or lard for me), at about 375 degrees for 2 minutes on each side. Reduce heat to medium and cover pan for 5 minutes or so - time depends on size of chicken pieces - Uncover, turn heat back up to high or medium high, and fry each side for an additional 2 minutes each. Drain chicken and let sit for 10 minutes before eating. * I fry in a heavy cast iron skillet, by the way. Blessings 🙂 Jillie P.S. IT REALLY COULD BE THIS EASY! True Southern cooking was, and still is basic and easy, until this very day. (I was born, raised, and still live in Tennessee, by the way).
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Post by kgp on Dec 17, 2019 10:54:36 GMT
Just thinking....if the colonel left his recipe for his daughter on the door frame but I can tell you it was some of the tastiest and best chicken I’ve ever fried! The ‘greyish’ KFC packaged seasoning mix - I am a colorist, and having an understanding of the color wheel, tints, tones, and color combinations - if you were to grind the above ingredients into a fine powder, you would get a greyish mixture. I know it is mentioned that he had his recipe on the door frame but I don't know if it says it was for his daughter. We can summarize that but the legend grows more distorted. It could be there for any of the workers that needed to make chicken. Remember this was before his KFC franchises. Nobody knew how valuable that recipe above (??) the door frame was going to be.
You saying that was the best chicken you ever fried says a whole lot. CHS said this same thing about his chicken. Therefore, you are on the right track.
You pointing out about "greyish" color lets us know all that paprika in The Ledington recipe seems to be incorrect. Also, using red pepper might be as well. It could be that CHS used only black and white pepper. Very simple.
Did you taste any garlic flavor? Do you use a scale to weight your flour? This might be valuable for anyone wanting to recreate your recipe. I usually weigh 130 grams per cup of White Lilly flour.
I enjoy reading your posts Jillie!
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Post by jilliegirl on Dec 17, 2019 11:18:02 GMT
Thanks for your comments, kgp. Honestly, I’ve never weighed any amount in grams, I just used standardized ‘cup’ and and tsp., etc. measurements. Hec, most days I dont measure at all. It’s just a ‘pinch’ of this, a spoonful of ‘that’ , just like grandma taught me. One thing I know people tend to get wrong when measuring flour - When measuring a ‘cup’ of flour, DO NOT ‘pack’ it! All flour (mine’s in a 5 gallon bucket under the cabinets), needs to be ‘stirred’ a little bit before measuring it. Then, after stirring, dip the ‘cup’ (which is kept in my flour bucket -ha) to get a more or less level cup (again, do NOT pack it down), and there ya go. One cup of flour. As for garlic, garlic powder is a true southern staple in the south. I dunno if it is in the KFC chicken recipe today, but I would bet anyone 100 bucks it was in the original.
If you look at the recipe I posted on the main forum, in my mind, at least, the original recipe the Colonel made in his own kitchen would have, at the LEAST, started with all equal measurements of the herbs/spices listed. Salt and pepper are always added ‘to taste’ in the south, so those measurements may be different. Yes, we are simple folk here in the south, but simple is best, IMHO. Ya’ll are a great group - Thanks for your feedback! Blessings 🙂. Jillie
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